Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[HeIsEnough]

The Rock is HUGE, and even then I cared not for huge churches. The Revival Center was a small group, and had a family atmosphere that I rather liked.

I meant more of what did you personally believe about God. What did He show you about Himself? What did you start to know and understand about Jesus, His life, His words, His actions?

[Harley]

And therein lies another huge problem I have with the whole thing - it seems to me that every church says that about every other church. That, to me, seems like a strong argument for all religion being man made.

You are right about that, it is a problem - not that it argues for being man-made, but that there is a lot of unnecessary judging that goes on (and I've been on both sides). Granted there are times when it's proper... when significant theological issues are at stake... but most of what I see is closer to ethnocentrism and sectarianism.

This is a tangential issue though, how people misapply the truth does not necessarily speak to the veracity of it.

[goinghome]

And therein lies another huge problem I have with the whole thing - it seems to me that every church says that about every other church. That, to me, seems like a strong argument for all religion being man made.


I think sometimes God allows us to go to churches that aren't good so that we will be motivated to seek Him on a deeper level. He wants us to rely on His word and the Holy Spirit rather than any church or preacher. I used to wonder about the good church/bad church issue myself but found that when I started reading His word and praying, He sent me to better and better churches over the years. As I was able to discern His word, I was able to discern what's a good church/pastor and what is really gone astray. Another benefit of going to lousy churches is that my skills of discernment were very well strengthened and I can now sympathise with people who are in bad churches and help draw them out, because I can say that I've been there and used to think this or that wrong teaching was true. :thumb

[franckie]

Yes, But how does one know for sure that they are saved?....................

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=a96589ca484dfd1e2505

[adam423]

Not to throw more fuel on the fire...but I'm confused on these verses in relation to OSAS.

James: 4:19 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Wouldn't this be a backslidder, wandering from the truth?

I also wonder about the John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Who are the dead branches that the Father cuts off? Don't you have to belong to the Vine in order to be cut off from it?


Believe me...I want to totally believe OSAS. My oldest daughter away from Christ, living with a married man, and wants nothing to do with the Lord. My sister, who once carried her Bible to high school and witnessed to her friends, has been backslidden for over 30 years. She thinks "religion" is for the less intelligent people in the world.

But these scriptures concern me.


Can someone please give me feedback on these verses as it applies to OSAS. I'd still like to hear what your thoughts are on these questions. Thanks.

[Just A Clay Pot]

In James 5:19-20...

"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

I think the key to understanding this is in the "soul from death." In the Greek, the word translated as "soul" is ψυχην (http://original.biblebrowser.com/greek/5590.htm), which is psuche. This is defined as the "animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma (http://original.biblebrowser.com/greek/4151.htm), which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zoe (http://original.biblebrowser.com/greek/2222.htm), which is mere vitality, even of plants." (Strong's Greek Concordance)

This is the "living body"...not the "reborn spirit." This set of verses seems to be saying that (as others have noted above) if a person is saved, but still constantly sinning, the Lord may be so disposed as to remove that person from their earthly life. It doesn't change their salvation status - just takes them out of the picture here on earth (where their sins may be causing harm to others via their bad witness. See Acts Chapter 5 for a good example of this.)

As for the 15th chapter in John, I don't see this as being a threat-type passage (i.e. "If you don't make fruit, I'm gonna remove you and toss you out") so much as a reassurance passage (i.e. "You are of course in me, because of the fruit you are producing, which can only come from Me being in you and you being in Me.")

I think this position is backed up very well in the 16th verse:
"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

Jesus is offering the comfort of knowing that He chose His people, and has given them the ability to yield acceptable fruit. As Christians, this chapter can be very comforting, as we are reassured that those things we are doing for Him can only be done with His presense. And this reinforces the fact that we are fully grafted to the Vine. If we weren't, we'd be as dead branches, unable to do anything in His absence, destined for the fire.

[Kliska]

He wants us to rely on His word and the Holy Spirit rather than any church or preacher.

Amen.

Preachers can teach, but we have the promise of the Holy Spirit to guide us into all Truth. People can't really blame this church or that church for falling away, as we are to have a personal relationship with Christ.

[adam423]

In James 5:19-20...

"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

I think the key to understanding this is in the "soul from death." In the Greek, the word translated as "soul" is ψυχην (http://original.biblebrowser.com/greek/5590.htm), which is psuche. This is defined as the "animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma (http://original.biblebrowser.com/greek/4151.htm), which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zoe (http://original.biblebrowser.com/greek/2222.htm), which is mere vitality, even of plants." (Strong's Greek Concordance)

This is the "living body"...not the "reborn spirit." This set of verses seems to be saying that (as others have noted above) if a person is saved, but still constantly sinning, the Lord may be so disposed as to remove that person from their earthly life. It doesn't change their salvation status - just takes them out of the picture here on earth (where their sins may be causing harm to others via their bad witness. See Acts Chapter 5 for a good example of this.)

As for the 15th chapter in John, I don't see this as being a threat-type passage (i.e. "If you don't make fruit, I'm gonna remove you and toss you out") so much as a reassurance passage (i.e. "You are of course in me, because of the fruit you are producing, which can only come from Me being in you and you being in Me.")

I think this position is backed up very well in the 16th verse:
"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

Jesus is offering the comfort of knowing that He chose His people, and has given them the ability to yield acceptable fruit. As Christians, this chapter can be very comforting, as we are reassured that those things we are doing for Him can only be done with His presense. And this reinforces the fact that we are fully grafted to the Vine. If we weren't, we'd be as dead branches, unable to do anything in His absence, destined for the fire.

Okay, I think I understand your position on the James passage. That makes sense to me because I know that many times the translation from the Greek is muddled, especially with the NIV.

But let me ask you another question about John 15. Would you make the assumption that the person not bearing fruit is someone who never made "real" act of repentence? But one who did repent could go through a period or time in your life where you are fruitless or wayward and still be grafted onto the Vine not destined to be thrown into the fire?

It is really hard when you love your family members. My daughter was really on fire for the Lord when she was younger. She went to church even when I didn't go and witnessed in school, etc. She even got in trouble for witnessing in the school. But now, she wants nothing to do with Christ since she is living with a married man and is even estranged from me.

I guess I'm grasping for straws hoping to reconcile with her in heaven if we never do on earth. Especially if the rapture were to happen.

[micky7215]

Okay, I think I understand your position on the James passage. That makes sense to me because I know that many times the translation from the Greek is muddled, especially with the NIV.

But let me ask you another question about John 15. Would you make the assumption that the person not bearing fruit is someone who never made "real" act of repentence? But one who did repent could go through a period or time in your life where you are fruitless or wayward and still be grafted onto the Vine not destined to be thrown into the fire?

It is really hard when you love your family members. My daughter was really on fire for the Lord when she was younger. She went to church even when I didn't go and witnessed in school, etc. She even got in trouble for witnessing in the school. But now, she wants nothing to do with Christ since she is living with a married man and is even estranged from me.

I guess I'm grasping for straws hoping to reconcile with her in heaven if we never do on earth. Especially if the rapture were to happen.

I John 1:10

The Word of Life
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our[a] joy complete.
Walking in the light
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.:)

[Just A Clay Pot]

When one looks at John 15:16, it says:

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

The key point here is "I have chosen you, and ordained you." Any branch that is grafted into the Vine did not get there by it's own efforts. No matter if it was by free will (where the vine chose to respond to it's calling) or by effectual calling (where the vine went to the grafting because of it's calling) the fact remains that there WAS an active calling (move) to be grafted. And, that action was by the Husbandman (God), as He permanently grafted the branch into the Vine.

So, if your daughter was EVER called into being grafted into the Vine, that grafting is forever. What God hath joined, let no man separate.

As for her non-fruit bearing activities now, that just means that her fellowship with the Lord is going to suffer. It might mean that she will receive a far lesser reward at the Bema seat. It might lead to a shortened earthly life. But, I am of the belief that her salvation is assured (based on the love she displayed in her earlier walk, which would have been produced by His being in her, and her in Him.)

Of course, all of this still depends one the heart of a person (her) and the actions of a Savior (Jesus.) And, we can never really KNOW anything about what goes on between any person's heart and the Lord, except that heart be our own. But, from the evidence that has been presented....

Continue to pray to our Father about her. Like it says in John 15:2...

"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."

God may have to purge her branch a bit to get her back into a fruit producing mode. It might even be painful, but the results of God's gardening will always be worth His efforts.