Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[Hootmon]

Yeah, but there has to be more to it than that. More, true. More of the same as well.



Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?The Law is the 'schoolmaster' (Gal 3:24). Accusing them of not believing Moses is like saying they flunked out of school...

In other words, their 'unbelief' was more than just unbelief in Jesus as Messiah. They didnt really take what Moses said seriously enough really understand the 'lesson'.

[LaMontre]

More, true. More of the same as well.


The Law is the 'schoolmaster' (Gal 3:24). Accusing them of not believing Moses is like saying they flunked out of school...

In other words, their 'unbelief' was more than just unbelief in Jesus as Messiah. They didnt really take what Moses said seriously enough really understand the 'lesson'.

Right, they didn't really believe....so the question remains, "Why not?" When people like Peter who was far less knowledgable, was able to understand far more, and did believe.

There has to be more to it than just understanding the condemnation of the law. Because the Jews don't see the law as condemnation. They see it as salvation. Which if we believe Paul, is absolutely backward.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

[Hootmon]

...so the question remains, "Why not?" Pride.



There has to be more to it than just understanding the condemnation of the law. Because the Jews don't see the law as condemnation. They see it as salvation. Which if we believe Paul, is absolutely backward.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.Humility makes the 'ears' more receptive to hearing...

[goinghome]

It helps me to have a brain picture of events as they pertain to predestination and OSAS. We see evrything like this:

Predestination Choice Once Saved Always Saved

But take the end and beginning of that line and pull them together in a circle and you can no longer see which is the beginning and which is the end. I think that's how God sees it. It didn't start somewhere and end somewhere, it just IS.

[HeIsEnough]

True, that is an incomplete picture.

I think that there can be no separation between God's heart, and His mind. To explain the one, invokes the other.


This is a general statement which Paul based upon a single historical moment, which could be said to describe Gods active role in the hearts of all men.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Which obviously raises questions about our concept of Gods desires, as you indicate below.

He also says He roams the earth, looking for a heart that is perfect before Him, that He limits the time He will contend with man, that He convicts man of sin, etc. These are not isolated incidents, to me, but global in their nature.


I agree, but this is the heart apart from God:
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

So seemingly, according to scripture, the only good that comes from the heart of man is that which God places there himself by grace.

Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

We are not discussing man in isolation, apart from God's divine influence. That is a major obstacle in these types of conversations. Partly because it is impossible, imo. And also because God's direct interaction with a man, changes the dynamic.

[goinghome]

Excellent information, thank you. Yes I do believe that we choose, but I also believe we must be given the choice, and it is quite plain that not all are. Just a brief read over the gospels will show conclusively that God does indeed hide himself so that his greater purposes can be worked out.

He reveals himself to individuals, not to the entire world.


Well, if you see things this way, doesn't that lead to a possibility that some of us are the real players and some of us are the pawns for the real players to play against, or to be played against to develop the faith in the real players. I think this is dangerous territory. I think God reveals Himself to everybody through His creation. But, I have also noticed a difference in people that has puzzled me for many years. It seems that some people can go outside, be in the trees or on a mountain, by a lake, and it seems to fill them up. Their face lights up, you know they feel God there. But some people would rather go to the mall and dream of Gucci purses, nature does nothing for them except, "look at me, I got to go on this great expensive vacation to the swiss alps, aren't you jealous." It's just a personal observation, but people who seem to love the Lord also have a love of His creation.

[LaMontre]

It helps me to have a brain picture of events as they pertain to predestination and OSAS. We see evrything like this:

Predestination Choice Once Saved Always Saved

But take the end and beginning of that line and pull them together in a circle and you can no longer see which is the beginning and which is the end. I think that's how God sees it. It didn't start somewhere and end somewhere, it just IS.

Good point. Does eternal life have a beginning? The answer is actually "yes" but it is a very interesting philosophical/theoretical discussion.

God is eternal = no begining, no ending.
Man recieves eternal life = a beginning with no ending.

[goinghome]

Good point. Does eternal life have a beginning? The answer is actually "yes" but it is a very interesting philosophical/theoretical discussion.

God is eternal = no begining, no ending.
Man recieves eternal life = a beginning with no ending.

Our actual physical and soul/spirit life has a beginning, but since God knew of us since His own beginning (which never began or ends) our predestination, choice, and salvation didn't have a beginning. He knew about it all along. So, in his mind, we never STARTED to believe, we always did believe, so that's how we can be predestined and still have a choice. My brain hurts.:scratch

[LaMontre]

Well, if you see things this way, doesn't that lead to a possibility that some of us are the real players and some of us are the pawns for the real players to play against, or to be played against to develop the faith in the real players. I think this is dangerous territory. I think God reveals Himself to everybody through His creation. But, I have also noticed a difference in people that has puzzled me for many years. It seems that some people can go outside, be in the trees or on a mountain, by a lake, and it seems to fill them up. Their face lights up, you know they feel God there. But some people would rather go to the mall and dream of Gucci purses, nature does nothing for them except, "look at me, I got to go on this great expensive vacation to the swiss alps, aren't you jealous." It's just a personal observation, but people who seem to love the Lord also have a love of His creation.

True. Obviously God is seen in the creation (some have called that "general" revelation, as opposed to "special" revelation) and men can make a choice to see what they want in the creation. That is a fact well attested to in Romans 1.

But this is far from being what Paul described here:
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And we all certainly carry around a natural man. But not all of us have a spirit that is alive to God. This is something God must do.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

There is something that must God must do. I believe it is the new birth, which opens our eyes to see, and our ears to hear. And prior to that, we have no faculty with which to understand the things of God.

I know this is controversial, and I am not trying to start an argument, I just enjoy rolling this stuff around and discussing it. :) This is how God teaches us.

Who knows that God might not tump over my proverbial "doctrinal apple cart" with a single word..... :pray .....it is good to always be open to that possibility, and to even, as I often do, seek it.

If I am wrong, I want to know ASAP! :thumb

[LaMontre]

Our actual physical and soul/spirit life has a beginning, but since God knew of us since His own beginning our predestination, choice, and salvation didn't have a beginning. He knew about it all along. So, in his mind, we never STARTED to believe, we always did believe, so that's how we can be predestined and still have a choice. My brain hurts.:scratch

Duz it neow??<--my best Irish accent....:doh

Yes this stuff is brain bending.

I don't know if predestination goes that far. And the reason I say that is because of the new birth. That is a spiritual marker, a beginning. It is the time in our lives when God reveals himself to us in an undeniable way. Now I do believe that that marker is set in a predestined place. But I think a big part of understanding the importance of our salvation, is to know that, prior to that moment, if God allowed us to die, we would indeed go to hell.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Predestination is simply an acknowledgement of Gods sovereignty. It should not be used to make us believers into something were not. We are simply x-sinners, separated from the world, and spared hell by nothing more than the grace of God.