Once a Sheep Always a Sheep, or Salvation Deficit Disorder?

[Chris]

Really good article here on OSAS. It shows that there are two facets to our relationship with the Lord. One is "union" and the other is "fellowship". I think alot of folks argue against OSAS as they don't understand the difference between the two. AGain, very good article here:

http://www.gracethrufaith.com/selah/eternal-security/osas-the-whole-story

[ddg1263]

Well I don’t really want to get into a debate over OSAS because when someone has something in their mind that they are right there is no amount of discussion to convince them otherwise especially when there is a crucial point in the discussion that is subjective. This very point in this discussion is when you are actually saved.

I for one do not think we have a license to sin once we are saved. Take for instance when Mosses brought the lords commandments down from the mountain and found his people celebrating to a false God. As we all know this upset Mosses and he broke the tablets in retaliation to the people who were doing such evil. He thought his people did not deserve those tablets. Well the lord punished the Jewish tribes for their transgressions and Mosses for withholding his word from them (breaking the tablets). I know they were born before Jesus’ time but it does show us that sin is real and the Lord does not like it. I know the lord will forgive us for our transgressions. And the New Testament is full this promise, but I for one am going to do everything I can to follow his law in my life. And even then I know I cannot be perfect and will need the lords grace to forgive me of my transgression. I think the OSAS can be used as a way to make someone feel good about sinning. I just don’t think it is healthy to knowingly go out and sin and 10 mins later say well once saved always saved and just go do sin again with out even feeling bad about it. Maybe I am all wrong, but I am not going to take that chance and besides that I want to follow his word. I just do not see how someone claim to be saved and go out do harm to your fellow man and then claim to be saved next week then go right back sinning the next.

Please know that I am not judging anyone’s salvation, nor am I saying that I do not sin. I am in need of God’s grace more so than probably anyone on earth. I just don’t think we should abuse that grace by manipulating scripture to cover a lifelong relationship with sin. I think our relationship with Christ should grow just as Mark 4 shows us. Perhaps I just don’t understand the OSAS teaching. I guess when I see something that may encourage bad behavior within preaching the gospels, I try to shy away from it and not dig to deep into it.

[ddg1263]

I agree with you Sing. And if I did not, then I would not believe the blood that Christ shed for our sins was real. I whole heartily believe that Christ died on the cross for our sins and that his death meant our chance for salvation, and that his blood covers all of our transgression. I also believe it is his grace that allows us to be saved. I believe this with all my heart, but I just do not believe that this gives us a license to go out and do harm to our fellow man or worship false god’s, and this is where we part ways. I do think there has been people who have loved God and asked Christ in their heart but have later turned away from him just as Mark 4 states, but then we get into a debate about weather someone is actually saved or not which in my opinion needs to be avoided because it is God’s position to judge peoples heart not mine. Do note that when I state that it is God’s grace that that expression is synonymous with “it is God’s work in our salvation not man’s.” If a man believes, it is his work for his salvation then he is putting himself on a pedestal for self worship. I just think when we are saved we just don’t want to sin. We feel bad about doing it because it may hurt the lord we love or even our fellow man. I can see how OSAS can be developed because the lord loves us as mentioned above, and love is patient just as 1 Corinthians 13:4 tells us. And I know we cannot be perfect, I just don’t think I need a teaching that may allow “a license to sin” issues in my life. I think I need to try and please the lord with all my heart mind body and soul and one way of doing this is trying not to sin and loving my fellow man as well as worshiping the lord everyday. But this is just me, and I do not want to let myself off the hook when I think about doing something wrong. It keeps me in check. And yet I still sin! Sigh (.

[magnum_the_logical]

Thanks for your input. When it comes down to it I will find out when I face God. ALl I know is that I was saved, and I was at a point where I never cursed, lied or did anything that would give the "appearance of evil" Now I was never perfect but I was as close to Jesus as any one I knew or know. Since an event that occured in 2005 I have changed totally. Thus, I am sure I was indwelt by the HS before I am just a different person now. I do not know if I will ever make it back. But thanks for all the reponse. No one has the one accurate answer but at least I can get something out of what has been said.

Understand, this has nothing to do with me wanting to sin or live as I the flesh wants. I have some deep scars and deep issues that have been very difficult to let go of. That is it in a nutshell.

If I had my drethers as we say in the South, this event would have never happened and I would still be the person I used to be.

[ATYCLB]

ddg1263, do you believe we can ever be secure in our salvation or is that
something that we just won't know until we stand before the Lord?

[TomT]

Part of the reason why some people deny eternal security is due to a misunderstanding of what salvation is...

...when we are saved, some mistakenly believe that God forgave only the sins they had committed up to that point in time. They feel they must keep confessing their sins daily to ‘stay saved’. If they commit a particularly bad sin, they will lose their salvation and need to be born again...again.

However the Bible is clear that when God justifies a sinner, He clears his guilt, past, present and future. The sinner is declared righteous on the basis of the propitiatory and substitutionary death of Christ.

Consider the fact that when Christ died on the cross no one now living existed. All their sins were future...

Thuis sin has been remitted and forgiven on the basis of their acceptance of the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ at Calvary. Christ gave Himself a ransom for all, and those who believe are justified from all things, from which they could not be justified by the law of Moses (Acts 13:39).

Likewise God never reverses His justification of repentant sinners

Certainly the Bible states that the daily sins of a believer must be confessed individually to God (1 John 1:9), but this is to maintain communion with Christ, not union with Christ.

...there is not a single case anywhere in the Bible of someone gaining salvation then loosing it and having to reapply the Blood of Christ to somehow "regain" salvation - it is a virtual impossibility and in assuming it could be done then we deny the very work of Christ on the Cross - he died once for all manner of sin

Likewise in Romans 7 Paul exponds on the fact that Law Cannot Save from Sin


13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.

17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

[ddg1263]

ddg1263, do you believe we can ever be secure in our salvation or is that
something that we just won't know until we stand before the Lord?


I think all who believe in and love our lord Christ should be secure in salvation because of his promise.

You know as I read these posts I see that I might somehow inadvertently made someone feel uncomfortable about the promise of salvation. It is not my intent to challenge the promise of salvation at all but to bring to light that the denial of Christ happens. I am sure if we look hard enough we can find a Christian who has converted to Muslim or even Buddhist. I just highly doubt that the lord would be pleased with something like this occurring and hence that is why we have a judgment day where all heads and knees will bow to our lord Christ.

[Cd4u_2]

I was reading Peter S. Ruckman on this "Sanctification" issue. He believes(if memory serves) that we are sealed in this " Dispensation of the Grace of God "and that our spirit is cicumsized from our soul,but sanctification comes with God working on our fruitfulness,conduct,behavior,etc. And that we can lose our sanctification and revert to producing bad fruit again,but not at the expense of losing our "sealed " status.Some say this promotes a believer to practice "Licensiousness",Which IMO True Sanctification prevents.Takes time,experience,wisdom,humility,and God's disciplinary action with us,in some cases. :idunno

Just to let you know about Peter Ruckman before you go deeper in his study: http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/fbns-index/ruckmanfbns.htm

[Tio-Peregrino]

I agree. Do we believe what we read or do we read what we believe?

That's kind of silly. One also must keep in mind that Hebrews was a letter written to a group of Jews who were being ostracized for their belief in Jesus. These believers thought they had an option that they didn't have...to go back into Judaism...leaving Jesus as the door, if you will. So the context also has a lot to do with this passage. Reading that portion of Hebrews apart from the rest, and apart from understanding to whom it was being written could potentially lead to misunderstanding and bad theology.

Blessings,
Matthew

[Topped 3]

Just to let you know about Peter Ruckman before you go deeper in his study: http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/fbns-index/ruckmanfbns.htm Thanks for the link. Taking it under advisement.