Purgatory? "outer darkness"? Heaven or Hell ?

[acceptedintheBeloved]

The Holy Spirit has led me to John Walvoord's book, Major Bible Themes, and your discourse this past week. I've been troubled by much of what has been discussed in this thread. Your study and Walvoord's discourse on Santification and Salvation have pushed me in the right direction.

What a joy to study the Bible with clear, concise, focused Bible teachers. Thank you!!

Good book! :thumb

One of the things I noticed in the Missler's writings was the use of Revelation 3:21 to prove their point.


Revelation 3:21

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

But here is where I think they fail. They seem to believe that the letters to "the churches" (Revelation 2-3) are to "the Church" (alone), but it is apparent that this is not the case, as evidenced in the following verses:


"... the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches"

- Revelation 1:20c


"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches"

- Revelation 2:11; Revelation 2:7; Revelation 2:17; Revelation 2:29; Revelation 3:6; Revelation 3:13; Revelation 3:22


"The churches", here, are made up of believer and unbeliever alike. All of professing Christendom. All that come in Christ's name, but may or may not possess His LIFE.

Those who "overcome" are those who have trusted Christ's finished work alone for salvation, and they will receive the package deal.

1 John 5:5


1 John 5:5

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

It is in the failure to see "the churches" as encompassing all of professing Christendom (made up of believer AND unbeliever) that they apply these "overcomer" verses to "the Church"/believer (as a "condition" for their obtaining of the "inheritance").

Hope that makes sense. :hat

[bek1]

Good book! :thumb

One of the things I noticed in the Missler's writings was the use of Revelation 3:21 to prove their point.



But here is where I think they fail. They seem to believe that the letters to "the churches" (Revelation 2-3) are to "the Church" (alone), but it is apparent that this is not the case, as evidenced in the following verses:


"... the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches"

- Revelation 1:20c


"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches"

- Revelation 2:11; Revelation 2:7; Revelation 2:17; Revelation 2:29; Revelation 3:6; Revelation 3:13; Revelation 3:22


"The churches", here, are made up of believer and unbeliever alike. All of professing Christendom.

Those who "overcome" are those who have trusted Christ's finished work alone for salvation, and they will receive the package deal.

1 John 5:5



It is in the failure to see "the churches" as encompassing all of professing Christendom (made up of believer AND unbeliever) that they apply these "overcomer" verses to "the Church"/believer (as a "condition" for their obtaining of the "inheritance").

Hope that makes sense. :hat

I view this the way you have described as the wrong view. (in otherwords it's my turn to say I respectfully disagree. :hug) The reason why is it's Jesus Himself making these statements to the churches. (and when He identifies "church" we should KNOW whom He is addressing. There is no example of Him addressing groups of non believers as "church" anywhere else...He is addressing those that are indeed His) The churches are encompassing the local groups of believers at the various places. "the church of Ephesus" and so on. Churches plural just shows that although each specific church received specific Word from Jesus, He also wants to make it clear it's to "churches" all around, not just for that particular church alone. But he is still addressing them as believers by each address He makes to each church. (the number "7" showing the complete church) THe Lord doesn't address "works" with unbelievers because with unbelievers the only thing that He addresses is belief, but all the warnings in these passages had to do with overcoming (ie:"works" of some kind). Even the church of Laodicea has clear indication He is referencing those that are indeed His. Rev. 3:19- Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. I honestly do not think the Lord disciplines the heathen, or non-believer. Again, He seems only interested in those that are outside the church or Body of Christ putting their faith in Him. Once saved, He starts to deal with so much more in the believer...including discipline of the unfaithful (but still saved) child of God.

Be careful not to ignore the warning the Lord speaks into the lives of believers by passing it off as "well he isn't speaking to the saved". The church of Laodicea has a very important warning we should heed...Rev 3:17-You say, "I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing." But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

This speaks volumes to me, especially because we live in a "rich" part of the world, and have soooo much. I think it's very possible for the believer to get wrapped up in the systems and things of this life, and give the Lord much less time and importance than He should have in our lives. (and service to Him and His Body,) I think there is strict warning here that if we remain lukewarm, we risk keeping Jesus outside our realm of fellowship...and have lives that are man centered rather than Christ centered. (which is why He is seen standing outside the door of the church wanting to come in and fellowship with them...He is offering His fellowship to them again if only they would repent...which I believe is also what I John is all about.)

My dear brothers and sisters...I believe these precious letters are indeed to us. We should pay attention.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

I only have a moment here to briefly comment. :hug

He comes to these "churches" (in Revelation) in the role and character of "judge". He speaks to some of those within these "churches" as those who "knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked"... which is not how He describes those who are His, in union with Him, His Church, the Body of Christ (as written and described in the epistles by Paul, given explicitly and exclusively for the Church). These are "lukewarm" because they are not (at all) connected to Him (the Source), and He will indeed spew them out (unless they trust Him as Savior before it is too late).

He does not come to "His Church" in the character and role of "judge"... but at the BEMA (-seat of Christ, for the Church-age believer only), it is our "work" (alone), not the believer himself, which will be "tried" (dokimazō - Strong's G1381 - tested, examined, proven) and rewarded (or not). That is how I see it. :hat

1 Corinthians 3:10-15


1 Corinthians 3:10-15

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me [Paul], as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Romans 8:1NASB


Romans 8:1NASB

1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

[caligal]

I agree with you Buzz, and I CLING to, Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Some of what y'all were saying made it sound like Jesus was saying, I accept you.......but not really.... But I'm truthfully in way over my head in this thread.

[Meg]

I agree with you Buzz, and I CLING to, Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Some of what y'all were saying made it sound like Jesus was saying, I accept you.......but not really....

I don't see it that way, Cali, I just think actions prove what we really believe. Obama went to church, kind of before he got elected...

[caligal]

This is over my head, so I will trust Christ and let the Comforter calm my heart.

[Buzzardhut]

I don't see it that way, Cali, I just think actions prove what we really believe. Obama went to church, kind of before he got elected...

we don't know why he went to church, for show? to receive a liberation social gospel? to mingle with others against conservative Christianity?


I agree with you Buzz, and I CLING to, Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Some of what y'all were saying made it sound like Jesus was saying, I accept you.......but not really.... But I'm truthfully in way over my head in this thread.

God accepts those under Jesus' blood atonement, once staind by His blood it cannot be washed off, and the Holy Spirit continuously cleanses us with it until we receive our new bodies at the rapture

[acceptedintheBeloved]

I view this the way you have described as the wrong view. (in otherwords it's my turn to say I respectfully disagree. :hug)

...

THe Lord doesn't address "works" with unbelievers because with unbelievers the only thing that He addresses is belief, but all the warnings in these passages had to do with overcoming (ie:"works" of some kind).

The following passage seems to me to be indicating that our Lord does indeed address "works" with unbelievers (not for "reward", but for "degree" of everlasting punishment):

Revelation 20:11-15 (Great White Throne Judgment - all unbelievers)


Revelation 20:11-13

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.



15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I find it interesting, though, that He refers to the Church's rewards as based upon (what kind or quality of) "work", while the unbelievers' punishment (degree of), in this Great White Throne judgment, is based upon their "works" with an "s"... which I think is significant. :hat

(Compare with 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 - "every/any man's work" - BEMA seat - for Church-age believers)

[friharbor]

For what it's worth....to imply that you can do enough "good works" to earn a place in the Millennial Kingdom (so that you aren't thrown into the outer darkness), is to imply, in my opinion, that we have the ability in and of ourselves to live a godly life. There is nothing good in us. We couldn't earn our way to heaven, so can we do anything then to earn our way into the Millennial Kingdom? We can only live a godly life living BY THE LIFE OF ANOTHER, Jesus Christ. HE began the work in us, and HE will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Phil 1:6). It is HIS work, we are HIS work. Of course, we can choose to turn away from that work, or we can willingly let Him work in us. I believe we need to yield constantly to the leading of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We are to respond so that HE can do the work. If we choose not to yield to the work the Lord wants to do in us, there will be loss of reward and perhaps discipline. But not a loss of being His and enjoying His fellowship. He created a way for us to have fellowship because He knew we couldn't be good enough on our own! If you have to do good works to stay out of the outer darkness, then how many works must you do until you know you are safely in the Millennial Kingdom? My life is not stellar as far as great works for the Lord. Most of my life has been spent raising my kids, trying to train them in the ways of the Lord, and being a godly wife (at which I fail often). I wish I could go out on missions trips, or have a full time ministry, but right now my ministry is my family and the people that the Lord brings into our home. The bottom line is that the Lord has ordained the works for us to walk in them (Eph. 2:10). Two verses before that it says I am saved by faith, as a gift from God. Do I now have to reach a level of sanctification before I can enjoy that gift of fellowship in the MK? To say that, I think, puts too much emphasis on us and what WE can do, and removes the "free" from His free gift. I brought it up earlier, but I share it again. When the thief was on the cross next to Jesus--Jesus told him he would be in Paradise with the Lord that day. He didn't have time left to live for the Lord, he was about to die, and yet the Lord said he would be in Paradise. I think that says a LOT.

Just my rambling thoughts....

[bek1]

The following passage seems to me to be indicating that our Lord does indeed address "works" with unbelievers (not for "reward", but for "degree" of everlasting punishment):

Revelation 20:11-15 (Great White Throne Judgment - all unbelievers)





I find it interesting, though, that He refers to the Church's rewards as based upon (what kind or quality of) "work", while the unbelievers' punishment (degree of), in this Great White Throne judgment, is based upon their "works" with an "s"... which I think is significant. :hat

(Compare with 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 - "every/any man's work" - BEMA seat - for Church-age believers)


Ok...now i have a couple things to add...lol. :lol2 But I really cannot be on here as much as usual as I have sooooooooo much to do today. (family in from out of town.) But I'm just drinking my morning coffee right now, so I'll reply to a couple.

I agree with the above, the Great White Throne Judgement is the place you do see Jesus dealing with the works of the unsaved. This makes sense though, because they have died, and made their choice (to reject Christ), so without the atoning blood of Jesus making them clean and justified in his presence, He only has the basis of works to judge them, which of course we know they will all fall short at that judgement and be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Their "works" will condemn them. But prior to a man's death, Jesus is concerned with one thing in regards to the heathen...his unbelief, changing to belief in the completed work of Jesus Christ, and believing He is who He says He is. Why would he address "works" with an unbeliever prior to that person being made spiritually alive? Wouldn't this cause an unbeliever to think "works" saves? With the person still physically alive, and dead in sin, Jesus will not address works, change, sanctification etc...until they are Born Again. Once Born Again and made spiritually alive (and hence able to understand spiritual matters) our Lord begins the work of sanctification, and changing that person thru the power of the Holy Spirit.

I think it is really interesting what you pointed about about "works" plural, vs "work". The first thing that comes to mind is that the "work" that will be shown at the Bema Seat is submission to the Holy Spirit. Really that is all we can do. The Holy Spirit is the one that produces the "fruit" that is revealed as "gold, silver, jewels". If we are not heeding the command to "walk in the Spirit" or be "filled with the Spirit", then our "works" will be resulted from our own flesh and be presentable as only "wood, hay and straw". I wonder if the "work" is simply submission to the Spirit.