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icebear
September 24th, 2007, 10:56 PM
nope

CatholicConvert
September 24th, 2007, 11:02 PM
I apologize to you then. I thought you were referring to priests (who are titled Father) forgiving sins through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

House of Light
September 24th, 2007, 11:14 PM
John 20:23 Literally says this: Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven; those whose dins you do not forgive have not been forgiven"

God does not forgive peoples sins because we do do, nor does he withhold forgiveness because we do. Instead, those who are ministering the gospel are in effect forgiving or not forgving depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Christ.

God does not leave something like retaining or not retaining sins to a fallen world. To people in need of a savior. He left that job for his Son.

CatholicConvert
September 25th, 2007, 10:39 AM
Jesus delegated the authority to his Apostles who were his representatives on Earth. This does not diminish Christ's power, it glorifies it. Does it take away from God's power that it was Moses who led the Hebrews out of Egypt? Absolutely not, it glorified God because Moses was doing God's will. The Apostles (and their successors) are God's representatives on Earth and they glorify God by forgiving people's sins in His name.

Kliska
September 25th, 2007, 01:19 PM
God does not forgive peoples sins because we do do, nor does he withhold forgiveness because we do. Instead, those who are ministering the gospel are in effect forgiving or not forgving depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Christ.

Exactly. When an individual preaches the Gospel to those who have never heard it, you lock everyone who hears the Truth into one of two situations. Once the Truth is heard, the individual can either accept the Truth, or reject it. By the Apostles preaching the Gospel to new hearers they are forgiving and retaining by the message they share, depending on the response of the individual.

House of Light
September 25th, 2007, 02:46 PM
The Apostles (and their successors) are God's representatives on Earth and they glorify God by forgiving people's sins in His name.


No.....God forgive's peoples sins. There is no mediator between a Christian and Christ. The temple curtain was torn in two. We have the right to go to him directly.

Abba'sLil'Girl
September 25th, 2007, 03:01 PM
Greetings Abba'sLilGirl!

Thanks for your kind words. I think your assessment is inaccurate because you don't address the second part of the statement that says about them retaining sins. Jesus preached unconditional forgiveness consistently in his minstry, example in the Lords Prayer. He would not have told the Apostles that they dont have to forgive people if they feel like it. I also don't think it makes sense if you think about. Jesus telling the Apostles that the people they don't forgive won't be forgiven? Let me know what you think.

In Peace

Respectfully, I don't think the Lord's application was that the Apostles "didn't have to forgive people if they didn't feel like it." I think the principle of forgiveness - or the law of Christ that governs our lives - was given in conjunction with the receiving of the Holy Spirit so that they would understand His power of forgiveness.

I also don't think that Jesus is implying that He won't forgive the sins of those whom the Apostles don't forgive. To me, that would create a contradiction with the whole of Scripture. . . . particularly these passages (Matt. 26:28; Acts. 2:38; Acts 10:43; Eph. 1:17; Col. 1:14) Again, I think the implication here is to help them - and us - understand that there are temporal consequences to sin eventhough the eternal debt has been paid by Christ. If we don't forgive others, then it is we who carry the greater sin.

Sin has to be dealt with on both an eternal and temporal plane. God has dealt with it through Christ from an eternal perspective, yet we must decide what we will do with it in these earthen vessels. Do we forgive - or "let it go" - or do we carry bitterness, resentment and hate around with us?

I'd be curious as to how the original Greek text is defined. Maybe a Greek scholar will pop in on this discussion. :)

Also, I find this verse interesting . . . Matt. 6:14 14 - For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

It seems to me that forgiveness is the means by which reconcilliation can begin . . . whether that be between God and man or man and each other. Christ has provided the Way to be reconcilled with God, however, this passage seems to suggest that there is a condition to His reconcilliation that goes beyond the eternal implications provided to us through Christ.

Grace and Peace to you. :)

Sing4Him
September 25th, 2007, 03:36 PM
Abba'sLilGirl has made 2 VERY good posts on this! Thanks.

Forgiveness of our sins upon our repentance to Jesus who shed His blood in our place on the cross gives us eternal life as we are seen clean in His site.

Forgiveness of a friend/brother on earth, does NOT bring eterna life. No man has done what the one and only Son of God, Savior, Jesus.. GOD, on the cross for us.

As stated forgiving a friend is earthly and reconciling the relationship. 'nothing to do with eternity.

Jesus' forgiveness to the REPENTANT SINNER reconciles us to Himself/God and brings eternal life.

Abba'sLil'Girl
September 25th, 2007, 03:46 PM
Abba'sLilGirl has made 2 VERY good posts on this! Thanks.

Forgiveness of our sins upon our repentance to Jesus who shed His blood in our place on the cross gives us eternal life as we are seen clean in His site.

Forgiveness of a friend/brother on earth, does NOT bring eterna life. No man has done what the one and only Son of God, Savior, Jesus.. GOD, on the cross for us.

As stated forgiving a friend is earthly and reconciling the relationship. 'nothing to do with eternity.

Jesus' forgiveness to the REPENTANT SINNER reconciles us to Himself/God and brings eternal life.

Thanks for the Love. :hug

CatholicConvert
September 25th, 2007, 03:58 PM
I like the passage you cite in Matthew. Echoes the one statement of the Lord's Prayer perfectly. However it is not to be taken in the same context as the passage from John I listed. The Matthew passage is discussing people forgiving people who wronged them in order to be forgiven by God. Great teaching and is much easier said that done I think we all would agree! The key to the John passage is "Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." John 20:19-23

Jesus sent the apostles to continue Jesus's ministry. This includes everything Jesus's ministry entailed. Preaching the Word, teaching, healing, casting out demons, and especially forgiving sins since Jesus specifically mentioned it. When you confess your sins to a priest or bishop, your not seeking their forgiveness. You are seeking God's forgiveness.

"16Therefore, (A)confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be (B)healed (C)The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much." James

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says Only God forgives sin

1441 Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41

1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the "ministry of reconciliation."42 The apostle is sent out "on behalf of Christ" with "God making his appeal" through him and pleading: "Be reconciled to God."43