Testing God - Knowing His will

[Mentat]

I think I speak for most people, when I say that I struggle to understand what God's will is for me - both in the big issues and in the small. I read scripture almost daily, pray daily, and try to understand my thoughts and motivations with as much humility as I can muster. Yet, when I face decisions, I struggle to know what is right.

I do not believe that every "door" that is "open" should be walked through, and I think God calls us to struggle to open closed doors, so the pat response of "asking God to open a door" is over-simplification.

I read that you should not test God, yet what is the point of the story of Gideon's fleece? I do think that was a unique situation, but what is the guiding principle?

I have discussed this at length and read scripture cross-references and commentaries, but I still am never sure if my decisions are from my own selfish desires, or in submission to God.

I tend to see God more in my "rear view mirror" as I can look back on the past and see where God was prompting me and acting in my life and where I was following my own desires.

Any thoughts?
:scratch

[gregbed]

I think I speak for most people, when I say that I struggle to understand what God's will is for me - both in the big issues and in the small. I read scripture almost daily, pray daily, and try to understand my thoughts and motivations with as much humility as I can muster. Yet, when I face decisions, I struggle to know what is right.

I do not believe that every "door" that is "open" should be walked through, and I think God calls us to struggle to open closed doors, so the pat response of "asking God to open a door" is over-simplification.

I read that you should not test God, yet what is the point of the story of Gideon's fleece? I do think that was a unique situation, but what is the guiding principle?

I have discussed this at length and read scripture cross-references and commentaries, but I still am never sure if my decisions are from my own selfish desires, or in submission to God.

I tend to see God more in my "rear view mirror" as I can look back on the past and see where God was prompting me and acting in my life and where I was following my own desires.

Any thoughts?
:scratch

I always wondered how to tell the difference between a "closed door" and an attack by satan that required me to press on.

I can't put my hands on my copy of "Knowing God" by J.I. Packer. There was a great part in there that I had underlined where he compares living the Christian life to driving a car and responding to the changes in the road"
The best two people to read on the subject are Gary Friesen http://www.9marks.org/CC/article/0,,PTID
or you might want to look around Friesen's site http://www.gfriesen.net/sections/book_reviews.php
(a friend of mine who is a full-time counselor likes Petty's "Step by Step" - this would probably be a great place to start if you haven't seen any of these names before)
and Bruce Waltke http://www.9marks.org/CC/article/0,,PTID314526%7CCHID598026%7CCIID1562236,00.html
There was an article on the subject by Waltke floating around the Web awhile ago but I can't it it now.

I didn't have time to read this article by J.I. Packer on bible.org http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=3437 but assume it is the same ideas presented in "Knowing God"
In addition to being biblical it is quite freeing in a way. God is not expecting you to figure out what He is thinking with regard to the particulars of your life. He is expecting you to apply the wisdom of His word to the particulars of your life. And to those areas to which there is no particular wisdom to bring to bear, enjoy yourself, you get to pick what you want.
It is good to question whether we are deceiving ourselves about prideful or other selfish motives. Find some good mature Christian friends (not too many) and discuss the decisions with them. At the end of the day our confidence is in God and His sovereignty and love for us not our intellect or even our spirituality.

Greg

[Duck]

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Romans 12:2

So many of us can look back at our lives and see the Lord at work. Pray and ask for His will and then follow to see where it goes, is how it works best for me. I do what I can do and leave the rest to the Lord. He does for me what I can't do and what He has done is remarkable.

One night having reached the end of my rope I asked the Lord to show me what He wanted me to do. Two weeks later was the first day on the job that I now have. It was a job that wasn't even on the radar scope at the time. Here I am almost 30 years later doing the same job. If someone had told me almost 30 years ago that I would be a Probation and Parole Officer for 30 years I would have laughted them under a table, you see, I wasn't exactly working on that side of the law at the time. It has truly been a wild ride...interesting job...with interesting people...many challenges, ups and downs. Life with Jesus in the lead is never dull.

'Bout to wind down on that front, retire, and again have been asking the Lord what He wants me to do. I am waiting for His reply but I think I might be going to sea...we'll see, but that is what is on my heart. I will wait to see if He has put that there...if He has then a way will come open. If not then something else will appear...point is as Romans 12:1-2 says...

sorry to go on so...hope it made some sense to you and helped a little.

[Mentat]

I always wondered how to tell the difference between a "closed door" and an attack by satan that required me to press on.

I can't put my hands on my copy of "Knowing God" by J.I. Packer. There was a great part in there that I had underlined where he compares living the Christian life to driving a car and responding to the changes in the road"
The best two people to read on the subject are Gary Friesen http://www.9marks.org/CC/article/0,,PTID
or you might want to look around Friesen's site http://www.gfriesen.net/sections/book_reviews.php
(a friend of mine who is a full-time counselor likes Petty's "Step by Step" - this would probably be a great place to start if you haven't seen any of these names before)
and Bruce Waltke http://www.9marks.org/CC/article/0,,PTID314526%7CCHID598026%7CCIID1562236,00.html
There was an article on the subject by Waltke floating around the Web awhile ago but I can't it it now.

I didn't have time to read this article by J.I. Packer on bible.org http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=3437 but assume it is the same ideas presented in "Knowing God"
In addition to being biblical it is quite freeing in a way. God is not expecting you to figure out what He is thinking with regard to the particulars of your life. He is expecting you to apply the wisdom of His word to the particulars of your life. And to those areas to which there is no particular wisdom to bring to bear, enjoy yourself, you get to pick what you want.
It is good to question whether we are deceiving ourselves about prideful or other selfish motives. Find some good mature Christian friends (not too many) and discuss the decisions with them. At the end of the day our confidence is in God and His sovereignty and love for us not our intellect or even our spirituality.

Greg

Thanks Greg - very good. I have always liked Packer, what little of his stuff that I have read. I just purchased "Knowing God", but have only read 20 pages, so far. I will move it to the top of my list.

I will look at the links, as well. I am also reading a lot of John Owen these days. Both his writing and a biography by Derek Thomas.

[Mentat]

So many of us can look back at our lives and see the Lord at work. Pray and ask for His will and then follow to see where it goes, is how it works best for me. I do what I can do and leave the rest to the Lord. He does for me what I can't do and what He has done is remarkable.

One night having reached the end of my rope I asked the Lord to show me what He wanted me to do. Two weeks later was the first day on the job that I now have. It was a job that wasn't even on the radar scope at the time. Here I am almost 30 years later doing the same job. If someone had told me almost 30 years ago that I would be a Probation and Parole Officer for 30 years I would have laughted them under a table, you see, I wasn't exactly working on that side of the law at the time. It has truly been a wild ride...interesting job...with interesting people...many challenges, ups and downs. Life with Jesus in the lead is never dull.

'Bout to wind down on that front, retire, and again have been asking the Lord what He wants me to do. I am waiting for His reply but I think I might be going to sea...we'll see, but that is what is on my heart. I will wait to see if He has put that there...if He has then a way will come open. If not then something else will appear...point is as Romans 12:1-2 says...sorry to go on so...hope it made some sense to you and helped a little.

Thanks Duck. I appreciate the testimony and encouragement. It helps.

I agree that it seems like we are floating in a river and any control that we think we have -- is illusion, perhaps. Like we are playing a chess match with a grand master -- free to move any piece on the board, but God uses our moves for His good.

I have been looking back on the last year and a lot of major decisions, and I can see that I was following His will, although at the time, it seemed pretty indeterminent, as I was struggling with the decision. I have changed my job and my church and lost about 40 lbs on a diet -- along with some other life issues. All seem to have me in a better place, and more focused on using my gifts for the kingdom.

Let go and let God seems too easy, but perhaps that is my own fear or "little faith".

[Duck]

Gideon, seems to me, was showing little faith...after the first throw he tried it two more times if memory serves...oh ye of little faith. However...go to Hebrews 11 and he is in the "Hall of Faith." Maybe a little faith is better than none at all. Seems to me that is enough to move mountains.

:)

[TheWorkman]

Something from Fruchtenbaum.

Please clarify the three words designating God’s wills

God’s decretive will is that which God has willed to come to pass through either His decrees, or His sovereignty, and His predestination. In this case, whatever He has decreed to come to pass will definitely come to pass; nothing can keep it from coming to pass. His efficacious will is perhaps only a facet of His decretive will; but it emphasizes the fact that God will effect or cause those things He wills to come to pass. In both the decretive and efficacious wills, God is directly responsible for causing His will to come to pass. As to God’s permissive will, this is something God allows to come to pass, even though it may be contrary to His moral will. The entrance of sin falls into the realm of God’s permissive will. This would be something He permits to happen but did not effectively or efficaciously cause to happen; therefore, He is not directly responsible.


How does a believer determine what God's will is when making decisions?

We already know God's moral will: it is whatever God has commanded us to do. In those areas about which God has spoken in Scripture, we do not have to pray to see if we should do it or not. God's moral will is fully revealed in the Bible. The believer's responsibility is obedience (I Cor. 7:19).

In areas where the Bible gives no command or principle, areas that are non-moral or neutral, the believer is free and responsible to choose his own course of action. Any way you decide is fine with God. Any decision made within the moral will of God is acceptable to God. Where God has spoken, we obey; where God has not spoken, we are responsible to make that choice. In non-moral decisions, the goal of the believer is to make wise decisions on the basis of spiritual expedience; that is, on the basis of wisdom.

In all decisions, the believer should humbly submit in advance to the outworking of God's sovereign will as it touches that decision. God's sovereign will is His secret plan that determines everything that happens in the universe. When making a decision, three things should be considered. First, God's sovereign will does not exclude planning. It requires humble submission, but does not exclude planning (James 4:13-16). Second, circumstances define the context of the decision, but circumstances must be weighed by wisdom and not read as road signs to God's individual will (Philemon 4:15-16). Third, so-called "open doors" are God-given opportunities for service, but this does not mean they are specific guidance from God requiring you to enter. Open doors are opportunities, but you can make the decision to enter one way or the other. This is brought out by I Corinthians 16:8- 9; and Colossians 4:3, which emphasize the availability of service. In II Corinthians 2:12-13, we read how Paul had an open door, but he chose to walk away from it. Open doors do not mean you have to enter them.

[AFEmery]

Satan is always present in one way or another to cause doubt in our decisions while trying to live the life God wants us to live. I have personally found that the more I listen to the leading of the Holy Spirit, the easier it has become to recognize His voice. I had found that when in prayer, I was going before God with my issues, stating them, thanking Him for His Love and ending it there. For a very long time, I did not remain in silence to hear His voice. In Psalm 46:10, we read in part, "Be still and know that I am God". In todays society, we are geared to multi-task, rushing form one thing to another, never really slowing down to smell the roses. If we learn to spend quiet time with the Lord, we can learn to recognize His voice in times of trouble or question.

[gregbed]

Thanks Greg - very good. I have always liked Packer, what little of his stuff that I have read. I just purchased "Knowing God", but have only read 20 pages, so far. I will move it to the top of my list.

I will look at the links, as well. I am also reading a lot of John Owen these days. Both his writing and a biography by Derek Thomas.

I found my copy of Knowing God. I bought it in the early '80's so page numbers will probably be no good. But really all of chapter 10 is about this issue, and that is where the illustration I referenced was from.
Greg

[Mentat]

Something from Fruchtenbaum.

Open doors are opportunities, but you can make the decision to enter one way or the other. This is brought out by I Corinthians 16:8- 9; and Colossians 4:3, which emphasize the availability of service. In II Corinthians 2:12-13, we read how Paul had an open door, but he chose to walk away from it. Open doors do not mean you have to enter them.

Good point. Thanks for your comments. Lately I have been struggling with the larger issues, like career. I think God is leading me in a direction, but I am afraid my own selfishness is influencing my choice. I guess I have paralysis by analysis. I am trying to put it off until October and spend some time NOT thinking about it.