Matthew 24 - The Kingdom of Heaven/God

[Surrender]

Ok, continuing....:) ...Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Of course, at this point, it is time to check out.Can we determine that Jesus is only speaking to "unbelieving" Jews living in Jerusalem who observe the Sabbath? I mean Jews who do not know Jesus. It is a bit unclear because Jesus was speaking to believing Jews at this time. AND believing gentiles living in Jerusalem do not observe the Sabbath. And not all Messianic Jews observe the Sabbath. So, who is Jesus directing this to?

Just trying to figure this out. :)


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This event also marks the beginning of the great tribulation. (which is not the beginning of the 70th week as many claim).

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I have commented on this earlier, but will state a theory I have here.

This scripture may indicate that the day of the Lord lasts 1 year.

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.

If so, then we are looking here at a shortening of the great tribulation period (perhaps) by one year. Many simply claim that the statement Jesus makes here is a statement indicating that "were the 70th week any longer, no flesh could be saved". And so the shortening is simply the limiting of the rule of anti-christ (and the tribulation) to 3-1/2 years. Either way, I do not know, but one thing is certain, this is going to be a time when satan has full reign, through the beast, and is allowed to persecute and (seemingly) destroy the elect (Dan 7:21, Rev 13:7).I'm not getting this one at all. AC will reign 42 months. Somehow, Jesus will cut those days short. But He can't cut the reign shorter than 42 months.

Could this be a reference to the 4th trumpet? "A third of the sun and a third of the moon...were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened and the day would not shine for a third of it and the night in the same way." Is this simply a covering or is it a speeding up of day and night? If it is a speeding up of time, 3 1/2 years will still be 3 1/2 360 days but each 360 days will go by faster. Know what I mean?

[LaMontre]

I just wrote this very long response which took me so much time to look up Scripture, etc. and we had a black out right before I was going to press the "submit reply" button. I just don't have it in me right now to do that again, so I'm going to give really quick replies. (I was so disappointed, I had to pray right after it happened!)

How odd. Something similar happened to me when writing my response. :twitch


I'm just seeing two different times for the celestial events and you are seeing one time. Joel uses the adjective "blood" to describe one moon and "dark" for the other. If it were the same moon, he would have used the same adjective. Of course, that's just my opinion. Why do you say he chose two different adjectives for the very same moon?

I would not personally read too much into it myself. How many times can the stars fall from heaven? Both of them reference the day of the Lord in context of that sign. Are there then two days of the Lord??


I see this at the 6th seal which I think you do too. We just see the 6th seal happening at different times. You give a good reason for why below ("the Lord alone will be exalted"). I understand the AC reign to be 42 months, so the Day of the LORD would have to come during this OR after it, but I must stick with the 42 months reign because of Scripture. Know what I mean?

Not sure. Yes the tribulation period is 42 months (the last half of the 70 week), which is followed by the cosmic sign, and the day of the Lord follows that sign. I think that much is clear.


In your opinion, who does He use as the "instrument of His indignation" (Isa. 13) during the Day of the LORD? What army do you suppose the LORD will use to "climb into houses" and "enter into the windows like a thief" during the DOTL (Joel 2)? I see this as the AC and his army.

Hehe:
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Once again, this sign is the sign of the day of the Lord, there is no doubt in my mind.

But to answer your question; in Isa 13 it seems that the multitude which is referred to is the elect:

Isa 13:3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.
Isa 13:4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
Isa 13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

I think the same is true in Joel 2. He is describing the day of the Lord wrath, accompanied by the saints, or at the very least, angels. But I think Isa 13 makes it clear, they are a great company of saints.


I thought they had to comply with Mat. 23:39 BEFORE they see Him.

That is a matter of semantics. Believe me, they will recognize the sign of the day of the Lord, and the remnant will probably be expecting, and praying for deliverance. It is going to be quite an eventful day.


As far as the Rom. 11 discussion. So far, this is what I see... the root is God's covenant blessings given through Abraham.

The natural branches are Jews with faith and the grafted in branches are Gentiles with faith. Natural branches can be cut off due to unbelief and wild branches will remain ungrafted due to unbelief.

The natural branches who are believers in Jesus are the remnant of Rom. 11:5. Paul is part of this remnant. The grafted in branches are Gentiles who are called out from a nation which is without understanding (Rom. 10:19).

Is the above correct?

Yup. :thumb


Now this is where I began to get confused...

The body of Christ is a group of people who are part of the tree. Not everyone in the tree is a part of the body of Christ.

What scripture do you propose to support that conclusion?

Remember this:
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

That said, I tend to agree with your conclusion. It is a question I am still working through myself. But the Church is SUPPORTED by the root (Rom 11:18). So is not the entire tree being supported by that root? Is there some parts of the tree that are separate? These are difficult questions, and ones that are posed by simply reading the text.


So, when I say "church", I am not talking about the tree.

You mean your not talking about the root. The Church is in fact (at least part of) the tree.

One question I have often pondered, is if Israel had not been completely cut off already, long before Christ came. In other words, the tree lay bare, and wasted, and ALL were graft in as natural or un-natural branches, depending upon their acceptance of Christ. The only flaw in this is the OT saints. Unless they are considered to be the root.


I am talking about a group of people in the tree (made up of Jews and Gentiles) who are partaking in the blessings of the root because of their faith in Jesus.

Yeah, but there is the proviso that ALL in that tree are covered by Christs substitutionary sacrifice. Now, does that make them members of the church?

:idunno

Personally, I believe the Church was born at Pentacost, however, I am not so sure we can really limit what that will mean in the end. All will be raised by Christ, all will have rewards from Him, and all will serve Him in the MK, all are covered by his blood. I mean, is the qualification for being in the church really to be limited to the time in which you were born?? The fact is, the word "church" is simply "ekklesia" in the greek, meaning a called out assembly of people.

There is no doubt that Jesus substitutionary sacrifice swept all of the OT ekklesia into the same house with the NT ekklesia. Or perhaps better said, all of the NT ekklesia is swept into the same house with the OT ekklesia. For instance:

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Surely, the OT saints are a part of "the household of God".

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

This is laced with OT prophecy which, were we to apply the historical grammatical method, would never apply to the church in a million years. Yet Paul (or whoever) does so here, and quite liberally.

Anyway, as I say, this is a long and very protracted discussion.


And btw, thanks for your help and all the Scripture you offer! :)

NP. :)

[LaMontre]

Can we determine that Jesus is only speaking to "unbelieving" Jews living in Jerusalem who observe the Sabbath? I mean Jews who do not know Jesus. It is a bit unclear because Jesus was speaking to believing Jews at this time. AND believing gentiles living in Jerusalem do not observe the Sabbath. And not all Messianic Jews observe the Sabbath. So, who is Jesus directing this to?

Just trying to figure this out. :)

Yeah, well, consider that it will be a time when the anti-christ will be coming after anyone who refuses to bow down and worship him. BUT at the moment he sets up the abomination of desolation, there will be time to escape.

The reason he speaks of the Sabbath is because on the Sabbath in Israel, everything shuts down. Kinda like we used to do on Sunday here in America. But there, it is hard to get anything in terms of supplies, transportation etc. ESPECIALLY if temple sacrifices are started again, you know they will be observing all the Sabbath days at that time.

However, you have hit upon the logical fallacy in claiming that he is speaking to unbelieving Israel. Only believers would ever heed Jesus warning to flee. But I believe there will be a remnant that will flee anyway, so we can take it for what it is and simply say that, if I were a Jew, observing temple worship, and some nut set up an idol in the temple and said "Ok worship me now!" I think I'd get out of town, and quick. But you never klnow. For whatever reason Jesus is warning believers to flee. Unbelievers would have little reason to heed his words.


I'm not getting this one at all. AC will reign 42 months. Somehow, Jesus will cut those days short. But He can't cut the reign shorter than 42 months.

Yeah I agree. My one year theory has been shot down completely. I think he is basically saying that 42 months IS cutting it short. Because the parallel reference in Mark 13, says he "has" (past tense) shortened the days. In other words, had not God limited the time of the reign of anti-christ, he would wiped out everyone.


Could this be a reference to the 4th trumpet? "A third of the sun and a third of the moon...were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened and the day would not shine for a third of it and the night in the same way." Is this simply a covering or is it a speeding up of day and night? If it is a speeding up of time, 3 1/2 years will still be 3 1/2 360 days but each 360 days will go by faster. Know what I mean?

The 4th trumpet is probably due to particulate matter in the atmosphere. Or something of that nature.

[HehasmagnifiedHisWord]

You two and others have made this a very interesting study! It is exciting to hear you all using the Bible to interpreting the Bible! May we continue to enjoy the rest of this chapter! Thanks for making this an interesting exchange. I hope others will join and enjoy this discussion. May God bless you all who are taking the time to study,ask questions,and participate in the study of God's word! PTL! God bless you all! I sure have been bless in reading your posts!

[Surrender]

You two and others have made this a very interesting study! It is exciting to hear you all using the Bible to interpreting the Bible! May we continue to enjoy the rest of this chapter! Thanks for making this an interesting exchange. I hope others will join and enjoy this discussion. May God bless you all who are taking the time to study,ask questions,and participate in the study of God's word! PTL! God bless you all! I sure have been bless in reading your posts!How thoughtful of you to encourage us like that! :hug Thank you!

[Surrender]

How odd. Something similar happened to me when writing my response. :twitchThe evil one is trying to shut us down... but it's not gonna happen! :heh


I would not personally read too much into it myself. How many times can the stars fall from heaven? Both of them reference the day of the Lord in context of that sign. Are there then two days of the Lord??No, not two days of the LORD. I was thinking that the day of the LORD is more like a period of time. It has a beginning point and maybe an ending point. It's possible that Isa. 2 describes some of the events of the beginning point, but I'm not sure. We know the day of the LORD is also mentioned in context with the MK, so I don't see that it is a one day period of time... the survivors of Israel are the fruit of the earth in that day (Isa. 4:2) and a day the heavens pass away (2 Peter 3:10). 2 Peter 3 speaks of the time at the END of the 1,000 year reign, right? So, this would place the day of the LORD in context with the END of the 1,000 year MK. Unless you believe the new heaven/new earth of Rev. 21 takes place at the beginning of the MK?


Hehe:
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Once again, this sign is the sign of the day of the Lord, there is no doubt in my mind.What do you mean exactly "is the sign of the day of the Lord"?


But to answer your question; in Isa 13 it seems that the multitude which is referred to is the elect:

Isa 13:3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.
Isa 13:4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
Isa 13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

I think the same is true in Joel 2. He is describing the day of the Lord wrath, accompanied by the saints, or at the very least, angels. But I think Isa 13 makes it clear, they are a great company of saints.But would He use saints as the "weapons of His indignation"? Why would the saints "climb into the houses" and "enter through the windows like a thief"?(Joel 2). Will the saints "thrust through anyone who is found" and "dash their little ones to pieces before their eyes" and "ravish their wives"? (Isa. 13).

Consider...

Jeremiah calls Nebuchadnezzar “The Servant of the Lord,” a title that appears three times in the book of Jeremiah (Jeremiah 25:9; 27:6; 43:10). The title “The Servant of Yahweh” is generally used in the Old Testament to designate persons who had a special relationship with God and who were used to do God’s will in the life of God’s people. Jeremiah designates Nebuchadnezzar the “The Servant of Lord” as a way to present the king of Babylon as the one appointed by God to have dominion over the nations and the one who would act as the instrument of God's justice (Jeremiah 25:8-11). In the book of Jeremiah, Nebuchadnezzar is God’s instrument to bring divine judgment to Judah.

Is it possible God will use the AC for His divine purposes in this way as well?


What scripture do you propose to support that conclusion?

Remember this:
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

That said, I tend to agree with your conclusion. It is a question I am still working through myself. But the Church is SUPPORTED by the root (Rom 11:18). So is not the entire tree being supported by that root? Are there some parts of the tree that are separate? These are difficult questions, and ones that are posed by simply reading the text...I'm going to have to study more on this before I respond.

[Surrender]

Yeah, well, consider that it will be a time when the anti-christ will be coming after anyone who refuses to bow down and worship him. BUT at the moment he sets up the abomination of desolation, there will be time to escape.

The reason he speaks of the Sabbath is because on the Sabbath in Israel, everything shuts down. Kinda like we used to do on Sunday here in America. But there, it is hard to get anything in terms of supplies, transportation etc. ESPECIALLY if temple sacrifices are started again, you know they will be observing all the Sabbath days at that time.Very good point.


However, you have hit upon the logical fallacy in claiming that he is speaking to unbelieving Israel. Only believers would ever heed Jesus warning to flee. But I believe there will be a remnant that will flee anyway, so we can take it for what it is and simply say that, if I were a Jew, observing temple worship, and some nut set up an idol in the temple and said "Ok worship me now!" I think I'd get out of town, and quick. But you never klnow. For whatever reason Jesus is warning believers to flee. Unbelievers would have little reason to heed his words.You know, I was thinking about this last night. Only believers will heed the warning. Now, why on earth would there BE any (or many) believers living in Jerusalem during the 1st half of the 70th week IF there are two witnesses at the temple preaching OR if the AC has made himself known by the confirming of the covenant? Those who know the words of Jesus in Matt. 24 also know to get the heck out of there long before the mid-point of the 70th week, right?? Why would they be "waiting" around to heed His words? Boy, this is not clear at all to me.

Okay, one way I can consider this...
Hypothetically...
Wits begin testimony in Jerusalem beginning 70th week. Temple worship begins. After hearing the testimony of the wits. for 3 1/2 years, some temple worshipping Jews begin reading the NT and those are the ones who end up heeding the words of Jesus.


Yeah I agree. My one year theory has been shot down completely. I think he is basically saying that 42 months IS cutting it short. Because the parallel reference in Mark 13, says he "has" (past tense) shortened the days. In other words, had not God limited the time of the reign of anti-christ, he would wiped out everyone.Yes, maybe. It's just not very convincing, since we already know very well from the OT AND the NT the reign of the AC. We know it is 42 months.

Hmm... Maybe the statement, "for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short" is pointing to the fact that there will have to BE a living elect in order for the promises of the MK to be fulfilled. Maybe He is not trying to make a point about the length of time at all.


The 4th trumpet is probably due to particulate matter in the atmosphere. Or something of that nature.Yes, most likely.

[LaMontre]

The evil one is trying to shut us down... but it's not gonna happen! :heh

Yeah, he had me goin though......:heh


No, not two days of the LORD. I was thinking that the day of the LORD is more like a period of time. It has a beginning point and maybe an ending point. It's possible that Isa. 2 describes some of the events of the beginning point, but I'm not sure. We know the day of the LORD is also mentioned in context with the MK, so I don't see that it is a one day period of time... the survivors of Israel are the fruit of the earth in that day (Isa. 4:2) and a day the heavens pass away (2 Peter 3:10). 2 Peter 3 speaks of the time at the END of the 1,000 year reign, right? So, this would place the day of the LORD in context with the END of the 1,000 year MK. Unless you believe the new heaven/new earth of Rev. 21 takes place at the beginning of the MK?

Yeah, I have often considered that the day of the Lord could include the MK. I am afraid we'll have to wait and see on that one though, it is far too ambiguous to know for sure.


What do you mean exactly "is the sign of the day of the Lord"?

Well, in so many instances where the day of the Lords vengance is mentioned, it is preceded by these cosmic signs. I have considered that these cosmic signs could be the entirety of the trumpets and bowls before, but I have a few speed bumps in that theory as well. For instance; there are still people with the seal of God in their foreheads all the way up to the 5 trumpet. And the fifth trumpet is one of the "Woes" upon the inhabitants of the earth. These are timing issues which are still.....kinda sketchy.


But would He use saints as the "weapons of His indignation"? Why would the saints "climb into the houses" and "enter through the windows like a thief"?(Joel 2).

Well, because they are coming with Jesus, who is also coming "as a thief". It is symbolic language for "suprise and alarm".


Will the saints "thrust through anyone who is found" and "dash their little ones to pieces before their eyes" and "ravish their wives"? (Isa. 13).

Yeah it is interesting how prophecy often places distant (last days) future events, in the midst of more immediate ones.

Case in point:
Isa 8 appears to be prophecy about Israel's impending defeat to the king of Assyria. Yet nestled in the middle of that chapter is this:

Isa 8:11 For the LORD spoke thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying,
Isa 8:12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.
Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Isa 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
Isa 8:17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
Isa 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

As you can see, this violates all the "literal approaches" to scripture, and in fact, this is where allot of what I quoted from Hebrews 2 (above) comes from.
Specifically, Isa 8:17-18 from the LXX are quoted there in verse 13 of Hebrews 2.

It was a common teaching technique for a Hebrew teacher to mention one portion of a passage that would be immediatly recognized by them that heard it, and thus the application would be immediatly understood. So in the context of Hebrews 2 (somehow) the author makes a connection of Isa 8. These things are very difficult to understand from our perspective.

But the more applicable point I wanted to make here, was that often there are aspects of a passage of scripture that are set apart from the rest of it. Which I think is the case in Isa 13. Although, I could be wrong about that, I will have to look a bit more deeply.


Consider...

Jeremiah calls Nebuchadnezzar “The Servant of the Lord,” a title that appears three times in the book of Jeremiah (Jeremiah 25:9; 27:6; 43:10). The title “The Servant of Yahweh” is generally used in the Old Testament to designate persons who had a special relationship with God and who were used to do God’s will in the life of God’s people. Jeremiah designates Nebuchadnezzar the “The Servant of Lord” as a way to present the king of Babylon as the one appointed by God to have dominion over the nations and the one who would act as the instrument of God's justice (Jeremiah 25:8-11). In the book of Jeremiah, Nebuchadnezzar is God’s instrument to bring divine judgment to Judah.

Is it possible God will use the AC for His divine purposes in this way as well?

I agree with that. Absolutely. Although I dont see him ever referred in any kind of positive light. I do see where God calls some, not necessarily to salvation, to use them to further his ends. Rom 9:17 & John 6:70.


I'm going to have to study more on this before I respond.

Take your time. I've been at it for a while and I'm still learning too.

[LaMontre]

Very good point.

You know, I was thinking about this last night. Only believers will heed the warning. Now, why on earth would there BE any (or many) believers living in Jerusalem during the 1st half of the 70th week IF there are two witnesses at the temple preaching OR if the AC has made himself known by the confirming of the covenant? Those who know the words of Jesus in Matt. 24 also know to get the heck out of there long before the mid-point of the 70th week, right?? Why would they be "waiting" around to heed His words? Boy, this is not clear at all to me.

Okay, one way I can consider this...
Hypothetically...
Wits begin testimony in Jerusalem beginning 70th week. Temple worship begins. After hearing the testimony of the wits. for 3 1/2 years, some temple worshipping Jews begin reading the NT and those are the ones who end up heeding the words of Jesus.

Yes, maybe. It's just not very convincing, since we already know very well from the OT AND the NT the reign of the AC. We know it is 42 months.

Hmm... Maybe the statement, "for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short" is pointing to the fact that there will have to BE a living elect in order for the promises of the MK to be fulfilled. Maybe He is not trying to make a point about the length of time at all.

Yes, most likely.

My best answer: :idunno

[Surrender]

Yeah, I have often considered that the day of the Lord could include the MK. I am afraid we'll have to wait and see on that one though, it is far too ambiguous to know for sure.Agreed. Hopefully we won't have to wait too much longer. :)


...But the more applicable point I wanted to make here, was that often there are aspects of a passage of scripture that are set apart from the rest of it. Which I think is the case in Isa 13. Although, I could be wrong about that, I will have to look a bit more deeply.I see what you are saying.


My best answer: :idunnoAhh.. come on! :)