A time for madness and God's judgment

[Mark777]

Could you give me a brief synopsis of the difference, in their opinion, between judgement and wrath? I don't have the time to listen to the sermon.

I found it very interesting as I had never thought of judegment in this capacity before. It was an eye opener when I first heard Chuck Missler comment on it earlier this summer. Then MacArthur did this one back in November and shared the same sentiment.

It's basically a study of Romans 1:18-32 where God's wrath is actually delivered in the form of Him removing restraint and allowing a nation to have its own way with their sinful desires.

It never goes well for any nation that this happens to and it is a judgement. :ohno

[futurehope]

God often begins jusdgement by removing His hand of restraint and leaves the people to suffer the consequences of their own sins. He lets those sinful cultures/nations bring themselves down. I think you can clearly see that happening in America now.

Romans 1:18-32 gives a good outline of this type of judgement.

This is not to be confused with the coming wrath during the Tribulation. That's another sort of judgement altogether.

I agree with this.

[Tall Timbers]

From the old testament it seems that God's judgment upon a nation came swiftly after a long period of warning.

I suspect we're towards the end of the warning period... but I wouldn't single out the USA in this case, but would say the world is about to see God's judgment, and it will culminate with the return of the Son in Glory.

Despite rampant sin and a corrupt government, there are still many in our country who belong to God, and we pray for mercy, among other things.

[cocopea9052]

Okay, so say my son becomes wayward, and I warn him to straighten up. He even knows what has happened to other kids that don't. And he knows the consequences whether he believes it will happen to him or not. I give him chance after chance... no change. I give him punishments to warn him....no change...I then start to not cover him, protect him. I tell him to move out.

So he does-- and life becomes very hard for him. I don't look back, I am done. He falls into life's pit traps and dies. Did I pronounce judgment on him by removing my protection from him?

[Sons of Thunder]

I found it very interesting as I had never thought of judegment in this capacity before. It was an eye opener when I first heard Chuck Missler comment on it earlier this summer. Then MacArthur did this one back in November and shared the same sentiment.

It's basically a study of Romans 1:18-32 where God's wrath is actually delivered in the form of Him removing restraint and allowing a nation to have its own way with their sinful desires.

It never goes well for any nation that this happens to and it is a judgement. :ohno

Thanks. So, in context, would this type of judgement go to a believer that falls into a sin? Seems as though Paul was addressing non-believers in these passages.

[Mark777]

Okay, so say my son becomes wayward, and I warn him to straighten up. He even knows what has happened to other kids that don't. And he knows the consequences whether he believes it will happen to him or not. I give him chance after chance... no change. I give him punishments to warn him....no change...I then start to not cover him, protect him. I tell him to move out.

So he does-- and life becomes very hard for him. I don't look back, I am done. He falls into life's pit traps and dies. Did I pronounce judgment on him by removing my protection from him?

I see where you're going but I don't necessarily agree with the analogy you use here. When you get a chance, grab you Bible, get a notepad, and listen to these sermons. It's worth the time - then again, I don't have much of a life. :lol2

For simplicity's sake, I would say that you leaving a child to his own devices by removing your protection is a form a judgement, if you will. If it leads to his punishment (or even death), he did it to himself but only after he had received ample warning from you. He knew better; yet, he still chose to do things his own way.

Mess with the bull, you get the horns. :hehee

[Sons of Thunder]

Just because something isn't a "judgement" doesn't mean it isn't still an act of God. A "judgement" is something that is final; God sends the wicked to hell and spares the righteous as in the flood or Soddom and Gomorrah.

God also sends warnings, and punishments, which aren't necessarily final, and therefore aren't "judgements", but are still acts of God. Like scattering the Jews for centuries to every nation, which began in 70 AD, that was a punishment but not a judgement because it was not final, God eventually brought them back. Hurricane Katrina was just the same, it absolutely was an act of God (only God can control the weather) but was not a judgement because He didn't kill all the wicked and spare all the righteous. It was a warning, to rattle our cage (didn't work unfortunately).

Not so sure that only God controls the weather now. I used to not even question this, but there are some scriptures in Job (can't recall where in Job) that seem to indicate God doesn't cause all natural disasters. I'll see if I can find it.

[Mark777]

Thanks. So, in context, would this type of judgement go to a believer that falls into a sin? Seems as though Paul was addressing non-believers in these passages.

Yes, I agree that this passage addresses non-believers. The problem is, if you look at America now, we have a lot of non-believers. I think we have many more false Christians, false religions, and non-believers than true Christians. Another problem is that those very people are the ones who are taking this nation down. As believers we can pray for the lost and for God to watch over our nation. We can do our part when it comes to voting, calling our congressmen, and making our opinions heard but if we are outnumbered everywhere we turn... what's a believer to do?

As a whole, look at the politicians we elect, our entertainment industry, the rulings in our courts that are anti-Christian, what our public schools teach our children,... this list goes on and on.

Obama has "judgement of America" practically stamped on his forehead. :lol2

How else on earth did we end up with a Fabian Socialist as president?

[MrMannn]

I don't think hurricanes are a Judgment of God. There have always been hurricanes. Its a natural part of living life in the Americas: dealing with hurricanes.

Obama and our descent into evil is not judgment either. We are simply sowing what we reap.

If we were under judgment, we would KNOW. Why? Because the Holy Spirit would have told us so, and there are too many discerning saints on this board to be oblivious to the leading of the Lord.

The reason we are NOT under judgment is also simple. America is the last western nation with a praying, believing remnant of saints, enough to stay the Righteous Hand of God. Remember when the question was asked if God would spare a city if but 10 righteous men were found in it? I think we are right at that breaking point.

There are still just enough of us to sway a nation...not enough to keep us from the natural consequences of our sin (sowing what we reap), but enough to keep us from destruction.

China has no freedoms and the underground church is flourishing there. We could lose our freedoms and still not be under the hand of judgment.

I end with a frightening thought. Destruction. When the rapture occurs, the salt of the earth will be taken away, and there will be no 10 righteous men to hold back God's hand.
Its my pet theory that at long last God will judge America. The first four judgments of the trib describe a world war that destroys a quarter of the earth's population. America could easily fall into that category. satan for sure might direct war against the US because here most of all, people might recognize the Hand of God and turn to Him.

Russia, China, even the EU might attack and the US could disappear in a nuclear holocaust. I include the EU as people marvel at the AC saying, who can make war with the beast?

(As a side note--its my theory--to include the Gog-Magog war here as well. This invasion could easily trigger a world wide war. And there are a number of nations and tyrants who would love to see the US out of the way)

Does this all make sense?

[Sons of Thunder]

I don't think hurricanes are a Judgment of God. There have always been hurricanes. Its a natural part of living life in the Americas: dealing with hurricanes.

Obama and our descent into evil is not judgment either. We are simply sowing what we reap.

If we were under judgment, we would KNOW. Why? Because the Holy Spirit would have told us so, and there are too many discerning saints on this board to be oblivious to the leading of the Lord.

The reason we are NOT under judgment is also simple. America is the last western nation with a praying, believing remnant of saints, enough to stay the Righteous Hand of God. Remember when the question was asked if God would spare a city if but 10 righteous men were found in it? I think we are right at that breaking point.

There are still just enough of us to sway a nation...not enough to keep us from the natural consequences of our sin (sowing what we reap), but enough to keep us from destruction.

China has no freedoms and the underground church is flourishing there. We could lose our freedoms and still not be under the hand of judgment.

I end with a frightening thought. Destruction. When the rapture occurs, the salt of the earth will be taken away, and there will be no 10 righteous men to hold back God's hand.
Its my pet theory that at long last God will judge America. The first four judgments of the trib describe a world war that destroys a quarter of the earth's population. America could easily fall into that category. satan for sure might direct war against the US because here most of all, people might recognize the Hand of God and turn to Him.

Russia, China, even the EU might attack and the US could disappear in a nuclear holocaust. I include the EU as people marvel at the AC saying, who can make war with the beast?

(As a side note--its my theory--to include the Gog-Magog war here as well. This invasion could easily trigger a world wide war. And there are a number of nations and tyrants who would love to see the US out of the way)

Does this all make sense?

Great post. You articulated in better than I could in my original post. I have gotten better, but I used to really struggle with a condemning conscience that God was ready to judge me as soon as I got of line, but thankfully the Lord has shed more light that He does not judge and condemn born again believers...ever, and is pleased with us because of our position in Christ. We still reap what we sow in a fallen world, but God is not imputing our sins to us. The Holy Spirit is called the comforter that guides us, i.e., "hey, this is a better way to do this"...but no punishment and condemnation! He has chosen to not even remember our sins! It's this great love and unconditional grace that really frees us to live a righteous life without fear...fear truly does bring torment(1 John) if we aren't made whole in love.