"Hamites"?

[Sister Anna]

First of all, I want to say that I hope I don't cause any offense by making this topic, but this is something very serious to me and I just must know the answer! This has pained me to my heart, I must say, because it is a matter where my husband and I differ greatly, and I just hate that because I try to be in obedience to him at all times. (1 Timothy 2:11-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%202:11-15;&version=9;)) Still, I fear that he is a racist, but he says that he is just following God's Word. These are the verses that we differ over:

And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. - Genesis 9:20-27

My hubby says that this means that Ham raped Noah and that Noah cursed Canaan, and then God turned Canaan into a "colored person", and he and all of his descendants were meant to be slaves, that it is an affront to God to have a slave race acting like "normal people". I was so shocked when I heard this. I did not know that he had a racist bone in his body when I married him, and he claims that he is not a racist, but is just following God's Word, and that "Hamites" should know their place as it is God's will. :ohno I personally do not know what thiese verses are talking about, but I think (and hope) that he is incorrect!

He has given me books to read about this subject to prove that he is right, and some of them do make a compelling case, I am sad to say, but they are all very old books... 50 years old or older. I am just so confused over this issue that I feel like crying as I type this because I am so lost on this issue. I have prayed to God to give me guidance over it and the feelings in my heart have not changed, but if somebody knows about this issue, please please PLEASE clear it up for me! As it is, I do not know what to think. I want to follow God's Word to the letter, but I do not want to be a racist, either, and I don't know if believing what my husband says about this would make me a racist or not, but it sure seems like it.

[Sing4Him]

I have studied this in a Bible study.

My hubby says that this means that Ham raped Noah and that Noah cursed Canaan

It was concluded that Ham firstly should have turned away from seeing his naked father out of respect. There may have been mockery involved and ridicule.
Secondly there is such a firm punishment that it is possibly he looked upon his father in an abnormal (homosexual) way.

[Compatriot G]

This stuff about "colored-peoples" being a slave race is just racism, pure and simple. Genetically, all of the races are almost identical. I don't remember the exact difference, but it is very small. Something on the order of 1-3% difference between the races. Genesis is very clear. God created man. It doesn't say anything about different races of man. Since all humans are capable of producing offspring between the different races, that would make us all of the same "kind". Darwin actually helped this nonsense out with the release of his book. The line of reasoning went like this: If we evolved from apes and if black people look more like apes(this was 1860's reasoning, not mine), then blacks must be a less evolved race. Therefore, they are inferior to the white race. Racism is a terrible thing. I'm sorry to hear your husband is a racist. Pray for your husband.

[IrishLass]

First of all, I want to say that I hope I don't cause any offense by making this topic, but this is something very serious to me and I just must know the answer! This has pained me to my heart, I must say, because it is a matter where my husband and I differ greatly, and I just hate that because I try to be in obedience to him at all times. (1 Timothy 2:11-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%202:11-15;&version=9;)) Still, I fear that he is a racist, but he says that he is just following God's Word. These are the verses that we differ over:

And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. - Genesis 9:20-27

My hubby says that this means that Ham raped Noah and that Noah cursed Canaan, and then God turned Canaan into a "colored person", and he and all of his descendants were meant to be slaves, that it is an affront to God to have a slave race acting like "normal people". I was so shocked when I heard this. I did not know that he had a racist bone in his body when I married him, and he claims that he is not a racist, but is just following God's Word, and that "Hamites" should know their place as it is God's will. :ohno I personally do not know what thiese verses are talking about, but I think (and hope) that he is incorrect!

He has given me books to read about this subject to prove that he is right, and some of them do make a compelling case, I am sad to say, but they are all very old books... 50 years old or older. I am just so confused over this issue that I feel like crying as I type this because I am so lost on this issue. I have prayed to God to give me guidance over it and the feelings in my heart have not changed, but if somebody knows about this issue, please please PLEASE clear it up for me! As it is, I do not know what to think. I want to follow God's Word to the letter, but I do not want to be a racist, either, and I don't know if believing what my husband says about this would make me a racist or not, but it sure seems like it.

Wow- it sounds as if your husband has been influenced by some VERY mixed up racist theology.

I don't have time to go much into this tonight, but I will try to lay out why he is wrong tomorrow.... let me simply say however that Canaan was not "turned into "a colored person" (as if THAT was the curse??)- how ridiculous......

Ham himself settled in the lands surrounding Egypt, and Canaan settled in the areas in and around modern day Israel.....

What later came from Noah's curse on Canaan was the Israelite's (descendants of Shem) conquest of the land of Canaan which God decided to give to Abraham and his seed as an everlasting covenant.

As far as whether Ham raped Noah, had homosexual thoughts towards him, or ridiculed his nakedness to his brothers is an issue up for debate...... but like Sing4Him says, the punishment was severe enough that we know it wasn't just an incident of him mistakenly seeing his father naked.

I'll try to post some things tomorrow that will go more in depth into the race argument.

[BlessedinHim]

I personally have never heard this, but in the New testament, to God there is no difference in people now that we are in the age of Grace. Jew or Gentile, free or bond, God is not respector of persons. If that is how God views it, then that is how we should view it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Ham

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/oneblood/chapter6.asp
http://www.geocities.com/athens/oracle/5862/slavery.html
http://www.ldolphin.org/canaan.html
http://www.rbc.org/bible_study/answers_to_tough_questions/answers/30828.aspx

I went and found these. very interesting. Hope this helps you out.

[LaMontre]

This stuff about "colored-peoples" being a slave race is just racism, pure and simple. Genetically, all of the races are almost identical. I don't remember the exact difference, but it is very small. Something on the order of 1-3% difference between the races. Genesis is very clear. God created man. It doesn't say anything about different races of man. Since all humans are capable of producing offspring between the different races, that would make us all of the same "kind". Darwin actually helped this nonsense out with the release of his book. The line of reasoning went like this: If we evolved from apes and if black people look more like apes(this was 1860's reasoning, not mine), then blacks must be a less evolved race. Therefore, they are inferior to the white race. Racism is a terrible thing. I'm sorry to hear your husband is a racist. Pray for your husband.

Truth be told, more than likely, Noah's line were dark skinned people anyway.

You are right, or course, this is just silliness. There are allot of peoples who were condemned to servitude as a people, the people of Esau for instance (Edom). "The elder shall serve the younger". Which did come to pass:

1Ch 18:12 Moreover Abishai the son of Zeruiah slew of the Edomites in the valley of salt eighteen thousand.
1Ch 18:13 And he put garrisons in Edom; and all the Edomites became David's servants. Thus the LORD preserved David whithersoever he went.

[goinghome]

I've heard similar racist logic used by arguing that the mark that God put on Cain when he expelled him from his family into the wilderness was that God made him black. They even go so far as to say that's why there are brown people, because Adam and Eve's family mixed with the black race of Cain and thus evolved Arabs, Hispanics, etc. But from the old testament we see where God used slavery of nations (nations may have been closely related peoples, but it had more to do with what groups believed back then and not race) as a way to bring people to repentence, or training them to depend on Him, or even to have them learn about God from the group who was enslaving them. The Jews today are still under this darkness, believing they are a singled out race above all the crazies who believe Christ. We are in the age of grace. Whether you're black, white, purple, or orange, you are equal in God's eyes. What enslaves us is that we do not realize our own lowliness, and equality in that lowliness, before God. Standing in our pride and believing we're better than anybody else, or having a sense of entitlement about anything, makes us slaves to satan. No man is good, only God is good.

[graceforme]

I went to my Life Application Study Bible to see what the notes said about this passage of Scripture, since I think the reasoning shown is the biggest bunch of "bologna" I have ever heard.

It said that Ham was showing severe disrespect for Noah, and for God. Verse 22 says that Ham saw his father's nakedness and went outside and told his brothers. Quite possibly he was mocking Noah and making fun of him, either for being drunk or for being found naked. The other brothers showed their respect for their father by the way they conducted themselves to cover him up.

Verse 25 has been wrongfully used to support racial prejudice and even slavery. Noah's curse, however, wasn't directed toward any particular race, but rather at the Canaanite nation - a nation God knew would become wicked. The curse was fulfilled when the Israelintes entered the Promised Land and drove the Canaanites out. (see the book of Joshua).

It sounds to me like someone is trying to justify their own bigotry. People can justify many things and find excuses for their behavior. Much prayer is needed to soften your husband's heart toward folks of others races and cultures. We should have no tolerance for prejudice in this day and age. We are all God's children, no matter what color our skin is, and I hope and pray that your husband will soon come to accept this fact. It will make his life so much better and take away the bitterness he obviously has toward others.

I will be lifting you and him up in prayer. Please try not to stress over this issue. Just cling to what you believe to be true - it has nothing to do with being submissive to your husband. Does he expect you to be openly disrespectful of folks of different color? I don't think we are expected to submit to anyone who goes against God's Word.

[HollowofHishand]

You can look at the verse from a questioning stance and ask yourself WHY was Noah naked? I've known many people who got drunk and the last thing they are able to stop and do before passing out is get naked! Most just pass out in their clothes. So what was going on here? Some speculate that Ham did indeed perpetrate a homosexual act upon his father. Others say that Noah was engaging in some 'recreation' with his wife and that Ham sneaked in and watched.
Regardless of what happened, Ham broke on the 10 commandments ~ Honor thy father and thy mother. Even though the 10 commandments had not been "given" to them yet, they certainly knew about expectations and many levitical things. For instance, how did Noah know which animals were clean and unclean in order to take 7 pairs of clean in to the ark?
The second question (already partially addressed by Irish Lass) is where did Ham settle? It is widely accepted that they moved to along the north African coast and then down into the continent. But that would make them Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian, Lybian, and Moroccan as well. I don't think that anyone even in the slave times would consider these people worthy of being slaves.
Also, one final thought on the Egyptians. God used this country several times over the years to save Israel. He placed Joseph there so that his family would have somewhere to go and live during the great famine, He guided Moses' mother to place him in the reeds to be found by Pharaoh's sister and raise an Israelite worthy of approaching the king on behalf of his people, He told Mary and Joseph to go there with Jesus to escape the decree to kill all the baby boys, Anwar Sadat gave his life for signing a peace treaty with Israel and giving the Jews a safe boarder to the south, and finally, God tells us that in the end He will bless Egypt again for helping the Jews. Does this sound like slavery? No, but it does sound like servitude. And that is what the Bible tells us was to be Ham's lot.

But let's look at WHO was cursed. Not all of Ham's decedents, not even Ham himself, only Canaan. So where did Canaan go? Mostly to Gaza, western Jordan, southern Syria. And these people have indeed been in servitude to Ham's brothers ~ Japheth's decendents became the tribes that will come against Israel in the last days. Now, that's a curse!

[antsinmypants]

Ham was blessed by G-d, and Noah could not curse him is one answer. The other is that Canaan was the one who did something wrong...

And Canaan birthed the middle-eastern countries