Predestination/rapture questions

[theroc]

I was talking with my friend tonight and his thing for predestination was that what happens with the babies and random people in Africa who dont know christ if there wasnt predestined? Can yall point me into scripture to talk about free will and predestination ext.. he's a form of calvinism

also

can I get the doctrine on the rapture as well as the verses that support it?

[franckie]

First off you must pray to be taught by the Holy Spirit as with anything you learn about God or you'll chase your tail from here to Iran and back.

When considering predestination you have to look at it in the essence of being described unhindered by time. In another words in eternity past, present, and future are all in one and there is no concept of time. We have a really hard time grasping this and it's of no use debating if this isn't considered.
Freewill is the manifesting of God's attribute of love.
He, through His own free will, went to the cross, showing his love for us, and through the will He gave us, we choose to believe and seek him. This is being played out here in a place bound by time. Even though we choose things here on earth, He is still the author and finisher of our faith in eternity.
Remember when considerng this that all Glory goes to Him and if anything is concieved in the mind that doesn't give glory to Him it should be questioned.

Ok my head hurts so I'll stop, here ya go.
Hope this helps.
I linked them to the whole chapter for context.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%201;&version=9;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%20%209;&version=9;




Here's a little bit on the rapture.

Rapture in: 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15:
There is no debate that 1 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15 teach on the rapture. Both chapters also teach the resurrection and of the trumpet blast. Neither chapter mentions anything about having to endure the tribulation before the rapture comes.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thess 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

[caught up=HARPAZO=Rapture]

1 Thess 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.



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1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

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Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


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The Seven Churches; One is promised an Escape through the "open door" from the Great Tribulation

To Thyatira:
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

To Philadelphia:
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

To Laodiceans:
[Rev 3:16] So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. [out into tribulation as in Rev. 2:22]

[theroc]

ive been praying and reading chapter 9, Im writing him about the conversation we had the other day and so far I have this



The message I wrote him

Theres only one way for interrupting this or any passage; and that’s correct use of hermeneutics…which I will admit I only have basic knowledge and use of it.
Lets go verse by verse in Romans 9

6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[b] 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."(Showing God’s omi-present etc…)
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose( his will) in election might stand(might be complete): 12not by works but by him who calls( who is called for they will follow it)—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]
(So we can see from this verse that in order for God’s purpose to be fulfilled, God calls on the people who will follow his will, so he elects them. And being omi-present like he is, he can do that. Kinda of an example is look where Jesus tells peter that he will deny him 3 times before the roster crows, peter has free will to say no but just as Jesus is God and God knows all, Jesus can predestine the moves which peter will make. Peter then denies Jesus and feels convicted after words. He there for knew what his CHOICE was and knew it to be wrong. You can look at The Trinity. The father said unto the son to go down to be put upon the cross, Christ did this and when he was on the cross it is said that he could have called down legions of angels but he was to faithful. Lets remember here Jesus was in a hypostatic union ( fully God yet fully man) there for it gives us a bit of insight as well to what we can do? Now look at verses such as

1 Timothy 2:3-4: 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Ok now you have other verses that pertain to free will by using the word choice or choose, are these the Old Testament verses you said I would be pointed to?
(back to romans 9)

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, ( again he will have mercy on those who he knows will follow his will)
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. (God’s will and if they will follow it, not on there future or past works as we can see in the context of the chapter) 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. ( he harden pharaohs heart because pharaoh was not doing the lords will/purpose, even after the chances that God gave him and he choose not to do it, there for we all have free choice and God wants us to repent of our sins (which that word is used so many times in the Bible including Jesus’ first word unto his ministry) and he wants us to accept Christ’s payment, though he already knows who will accept his it payment and who will not, so he lets us live our lives and will but he already knows the end result and what will happen).
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"(again its talking about will and purpose) 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use

Again, that’s without great hermeneutics, so there is a correct way to interrupt the verse but using my basic knowledge of it and reading it with prayer, I gathered this from it. I will be eager to see what you will right back because im sure you will respond with some stuff!




Is this incorrect and should I change some of the stuff or is it ok? Please put in your input.

[theroc]

anyone?

[franckie]

Hey roc, sorry for being so slow to respond.


Peter's problem was pride, (just like all of us) in that he wanted to be equal with Christ in sharing his sufferings (misguided zeal), but what Peter didn't realize is that, he Peter, was not to share the same "cup of suffering" as Jesus. If he could, then Peter would recieve glory for the sacrifice for sin also. Jesus suffering was for a different purpose in that He would be glorified above all. (Praise God for that purpose)
So when Peter denied Jesus he did so out of his own choice (God allowing Peter to be Peter in the flesh) so that he would know his place. And thus the end result, the Lord and only the Lord being exaulted.

When we walk through the various trials and temptations of life, we do so to grow in Christ ,and learn to allow Him to be glorified in them. (Choosing to yeild to the spirit, and not the flesh. The ability of which is given by God). Evil on the otherhand is forceable and demanding.

In the essence of choice there has to be one way or the other, and when put to use here, one way is God, and the other is evil (or anything other than God). Our natural tendency is to choose evil, because we were born in a fallen world and until we've been given the choice (called by God, and in turn Him revealing himself to us) we know no different. This is why the world must be canvassed in the gospel before the rapture. So when all have been given the choice, the separation between those who would believe, and those who would not, would be complete. Now this is taken into account also that those who aren't of the age of accountability will be raputured also.


Ok, lots of various OT verses on choosing:

Deuteronomy 30:19 (King James Version)

19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


Joshua 24:15 (King James Version)

15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


Psalm 25:9-14 (King James Version)

9The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
10All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies. 11For thy name's sake, O LORD, pardon mine iniquity; for it is great. 12What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. 13His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.14The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.


Proverbs 1:29 (King James Version)

29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:


Proverbs 3:31 (King James Version)

31Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.


Isaiah 7:15-16 (King James Version)

15Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 16For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.


Isaiah 56:4 (King James Version)

4For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;


Isaiah 65:12 (King James Version)

12Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.



Clearly there are plenty of verses in scriptures that point to freewill, and also to predestination. So which is it? There are so many threads where people are debating this, and it always seems to boil down the the same basic funamentals of the concept of predestination being unhindered by time (that of which has aready taken place in eternity), and that of freewill which is always bound by time.
How God is able to make eternity work in this realm of time, and yet still give us free will, is the theme of all of this, and gives glory to God.

God existing before time is pretty well establshed, and a based on that fact, He would have to be the author of time, and therefore ordain what was to happen. (predestination)
To add to that, freewill is what love is all about. You can't force someone to love you, but rather for it to be true love, it must be given freely, and God is the author of love. He gave us his love, being able to transcend time on all levels, and now we give it back. He gives us crowns when we go home, and we cast them back to Him acknowleging that He gave us the ability to do the things we did to glorify Him. So who are we, but merely the subjects of God's plan to reveal his great power (through the weakest of beings) of love. Pretty humbling when you really soak it up.
JMO Perhaps he was accused of not being a loving God after satan's fall in the realm of time satan exists on. :scratch :idunno


So where do angels both fallen and good play in this?
To answer a question that had plagued me for a long time about angels is really quite simple.
Various times throughout scripture satan is described as doing this and doing that and whatever else, going to and fro etc. but what really got me was the original fall in
Isaiah 14:12-16 (King James Version)

12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations.13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

This, being from point A to Point B would also indicate a perception of time but on a different level. Satan as an example, wasn't or isn't omnipresent or omnipotent like God, but wanted to be that way. So it's safe to say that angels operate on a diffrent level of time(which is much faster than ours) and explains why they are able to do the things they can.

Hope this helps,

YBIC
Ryan