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grapplewithGod

January 21st, 2011, 10:32 AM

John saw a lot of things.

Do you consider the entire book of Revelation to be in chronological order?

Im not sure you can just substitue 'salvation' for 'sealing' in that context.

So?

Okay, your not really adding any productive comments...just asking more questions.

You are also making statements that disregard the actual facts.

"John Saw a lot of things" yes I understand that, but what he sees regarding the 144,000 is clearly in an interlude between the 6th and 7th seal.

As far as Walvoord, it was just to point out that it is relatively accepted that Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 are describing the same event. You said this is a problem...but if it's a problem, give me an explanation for why.

You may not care, but expressing that you don't care is not a constructive part of the conversation.

You would be departing from the general line of thinking regarding the 144,000 "sealed" if you were to say it wasn't a reference to salvation.

Wally

January 21st, 2011, 10:44 AM

Remember John is in heaven. A timeless environment. Where we may perceive an order due to the narrative, there may in fact be no order.

Although I join with a few that there may indeed be a winnowing before the Rapture, it will not be by the hand of God, for the Tribulation is His wrath outpoured and we are not subject to it.

So how bad can it get? Man can do fine without the help of satan is seems.

As for believers, I would expect tons of believers following the Rapture. However many will have no faith and as soon as the fires and persecution start -fall away. Persecution will be immediate and the closer to satan's throne - the more intense.

Those who loose their lives trusting Jesus, will keep it. Those ministering to Jews, refusing the mark, loving their neighbors.... those who are killed for their faith will live with Jesus. Those who remain alive and faithful will see their reward as well. It won't be many but they will join a crowd beyond number.

Steve53

January 21st, 2011, 10:48 AM

Who is being martyred in Revelation 6:9-11 and Matthew 24:9 if Christians have been raptured and the 144,000 come after the 5th seal?

Timing is key to your question here.

First a little information -

http://www.gotquestions.org/144000.html

Question: "Who are the 144,000?"

Answer: The book of Revelation has always presented the interpreter with challenges. The book is steeped in vivid imagery and symbolism which people have interpreted differently depending on their preconceptions of the book as a whole. There are four main interpretive approaches to the book of Revelation: 1) preterist (which sees all or most of the events in Revelation as having already occurred by the end of the 1st century); 2) historicist (which sees Revelation as a survey of church history from apostolic times to the present); 3) idealist (which sees Revelation as a depiction of the struggle between good and evil); 4) futurist (which sees Revelation as prophecy of events to come). Of the four, only the futurist approach interprets Revelation in the same grammatical-historical method as the rest of Scripture. It is also a better fit with Revelation’s own claim to be prophecy (Revelation 1:3 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%201.3); 22:7 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2022.7), 10 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2022.10), 18 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2022.18), 19 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2022.19)).

So the answer to the question “who are the 144,000?” will depend on which interpretive approach you take to the book of Revelation. With the exception of the futurist approach, all of the other approaches interpret the 144,000 symbolically, as representative of the church and the number 144,000 being symbolic of the totality—i.e., the complete number—of the church. Yet when taken at face value: “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel” (Revelation 7:4 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%207.4)), nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the “sons of Israel.” The New Testament offers no clear cut text replacing Israel with the church.

These Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God from all of the divine judgments and from the Antichrist to perform their mission during the tribulation period (see Revelation 6:17 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.17), in which people will wonder who can stand from the wrath to come). The tribulation period is a future seven-year period of time in which God will enact divine judgment against those who reject Him and will complete His plan of salvation for the nation of Israel. All of this is according to God’s revelation to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Daniel%209.24-27)). The 144,000 Jews are a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2014.4)) of a redeemed Israel which has been previously prophesied (Zechariah 12:10 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Zechariah%2012.10); Romans 11:25-27 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Romans%2011.25-27)), and their mission is to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%207.9))—will come to faith in Christ.

Much of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses (http://www.gotquestions.org/Jehovahs-Witnesses.html). The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God. The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the heavenly hope. Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the earthly hope—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000. Clearly, we can see that Jehovah’s Witness teaching sets up a caste society in the afterlife with a ruling class (the 144,000) and those who are ruled. The Bible teaches no such “dual class” doctrine. It is true that according to Revelation 20:4 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2020.4) there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the church (believers in Jesus Christ), Old Testament saints (believers who died before Christ’s first advent), and tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people. Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will take place at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God and we will be His people (Revelation 21:3 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2021.3)). The inheritance promised to us in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Ephesians%201.13-14)) will become ours, and we will all be co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Romans%208.17)).

Now to timing -

http://www.gotquestions.org/seven-seals-trumpets.html

Question: "What are the seven seals and seven trumpets in the Book of Revelation?"

Answer: The seven seals (Revelation 6:1-17 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.1-17), 8:1-5 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.1-5)), seven trumpets (Revelation 8:6-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.6-21), 11:15-19 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2011.15-19)), and seven bowls (Revelation 16:1-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.1-21)) are three succeeding series of end-times judgments from God. The judgments get progressively worse and more devastating as the end times progress. The seven seals, trumpets, and bowls are connected to one another. The seventh seal introduces the seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-5 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.1-5)), and the seventh trumpet introduces the seven bowls (Revelation 11:15-19 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2011.15-19), 15:1-8 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2015.1-8)).

The first four of the seven seals are known as the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. The first seal introduces the Antichrist (Revelation 6:1-2 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.1-2)). The second seal causes great warfare (Revelation 6:3-4 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.3-4)). The third of the seven seals causes famine (Revelation 6:5-6 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.5-6)). The fourth seal brings about plague, further famine, and further warfare (Revelation 6:7-8 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.7-8)).

The fifth seal tells us of those who will be martyred for their faith in Christ during the end times (Revelation 6:9-11 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.9-11)). God hears their cries for justice and will deliver it in His timing—in the form of the sixth seal, along with the trumpet and bowl judgments. When the sixth of the seven seals is broken, a devastating earthquake occurs, causing massive upheaval and terrible devastation—along with unusual astronomical phenomena (Revelation 6:12-14 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.12-14)). Those who survive are right to cry out, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Revelation 6:16-17 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.16-17)).

The seven trumpets are described in Revelation 8:6-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.6-21). The seven trumpets are the “contents” of the seventh seal (Revelation 8:1-5 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.1-5)). The first trumpet causes hail and fire that destroys much of the plant life in the world (Revelation 8:7 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.7)). The second trumpet brings about what seems to be a meteor hitting the oceans and causing the death of much of the world’s sea life (Revelation 8:8-9 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.8-9)). The third trumpet is similar to the second, except it affects the world’s lakes and rivers instead of the oceans (Revelation 8:10-11 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.10-11)).

The fourth of the seven trumpets causes the sun and moon to be darkened (Revelation 8:12 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.12)). The fifth trumpet results in a plague of “demonic locusts” that attack and torture humanity (Revelation 9:1-11 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%209.1-11)). The sixth trumpet releases a demonic army that kills a third of humanity (Revelation 9:12-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%209.12-21)). The seventh trumpet calls forth the seven angels with the seven bowls of God’s wrath (Revelation 11:15-19 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2011.15-19), 15:1-8 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2015.1-8)).

The seven bowl judgments are described in Revelation 16:1-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.1-21). The seven bowl judgments are called forth by the seventh trumpet. The first bowl causes painful sores to break out on humanity (Revelation 16:2 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.2)). The second bowl results in the death of every living thing in the sea (Revelation 16:3 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.3)). The third bowl causes the rivers to turn into blood (Revelation 16:4-7 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.4-7)). The fourth of the seven bowls results in the sun’s heat being intensified and causing great pain (Revelation 16:8-9 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.8-9)). The fifth bowl causes great darkness and an intensification of the sores from the first bowl (Revelation 16:10-11 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.10-11)). The sixth bowl results in the Euphrates River being dried up and the armies of the Antichrist being gathered together to wage the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 16:12-14 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.12-14)). The seventh bowl results in a devastating earthquake followed by giant hailstones (Revelation 16:15-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.15-21)).

Revelation 16:5-7 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.5-7) declares of God, “You are just in these judgments, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged; for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve. … Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments.”

OnceWasLost

January 21st, 2011, 11:05 AM

There is no problem believing that people are enraged at God and thereby would gladly come after His people. (martyr) Those who come to faith, after the Rapture and the carnage of the seals, would be a target for retaliation by those the events of Ch. 6:16-17

IMO this is pre MOB as that would seem to be further on in the chronology. The calling of the 144k doesn't cause any problem with those martyred as they are independent of one another. Ch. 6 tells us that they are martyred as those who have yet to be so. Until that number is complete, those under the altar cannot be avenged. That doesn't happen until the Bowls if Ch. 16

Hootmon

January 21st, 2011, 11:06 AM

Okay, your not really adding any productive comments...just asking more questions.I thought you were trying to test this theory. :idunno

You would be departing from the general line of thinking regarding the 144,000 "sealed" if you were to say it wasn't a reference to salvation.It isnt, IMO.

Guess Ill shut up now... :wave

grapplewithGod

January 21st, 2011, 11:12 AM

Timing is key to your question here.

First a little information -

http://www.gotquestions.org/144000.html

Question: "Who are the 144,000?"

Answer: The book of Revelation has always presented the interpreter with challenges. The book is steeped in vivid imagery and symbolism which people have interpreted differently depending on their preconceptions of the book as a whole. There are four main interpretive approaches to the book of Revelation: 1) preterist (which sees all or most of the events in Revelation as having already occurred by the end of the 1st century); 2) historicist (which sees Revelation as a survey of church history from apostolic times to the present); 3) idealist (which sees Revelation as a depiction of the struggle between good and evil); 4) futurist (which sees Revelation as prophecy of events to come). Of the four, only the futurist approach interprets Revelation in the same grammatical-historical method as the rest of Scripture. It is also a better fit with Revelation’s own claim to be prophecy (Revelation 1:3 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%201.3); 22:7 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2022.7), 10 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2022.10), 18 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2022.18), 19 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2022.19)).

So the answer to the question “who are the 144,000?” will depend on which interpretive approach you take to the book of Revelation. With the exception of the futurist approach, all of the other approaches interpret the 144,000 symbolically, as representative of the church and the number 144,000 being symbolic of the totality—i.e., the complete number—of the church. Yet when taken at face value: “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel” (Revelation 7:4 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%207.4)), nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the “sons of Israel.” The New Testament offers no clear cut text replacing Israel with the church.

These Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God from all of the divine judgments and from the Antichrist to perform their mission during the tribulation period (see Revelation 6:17 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.17), in which people will wonder who can stand from the wrath to come). The tribulation period is a future seven-year period of time in which God will enact divine judgment against those who reject Him and will complete His plan of salvation for the nation of Israel. All of this is according to God’s revelation to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Daniel%209.24-27)). The 144,000 Jews are a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2014.4)) of a redeemed Israel which has been previously prophesied (Zechariah 12:10 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Zechariah%2012.10); Romans 11:25-27 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Romans%2011.25-27)), and their mission is to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%207.9))—will come to faith in Christ.

Much of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses (http://www.gotquestions.org/Jehovahs-Witnesses.html). The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God. The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the heavenly hope. Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the earthly hope—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000. Clearly, we can see that Jehovah’s Witness teaching sets up a caste society in the afterlife with a ruling class (the 144,000) and those who are ruled. The Bible teaches no such “dual class” doctrine. It is true that according to Revelation 20:4 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2020.4) there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the church (believers in Jesus Christ), Old Testament saints (believers who died before Christ’s first advent), and tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people. Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will take place at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God and we will be His people (Revelation 21:3 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2021.3)). The inheritance promised to us in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Ephesians%201.13-14)) will become ours, and we will all be co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Romans%208.17)).

Now to timing -

http://www.gotquestions.org/seven-seals-trumpets.html

Question: "What are the seven seals and seven trumpets in the Book of Revelation?"

Answer: The seven seals (Revelation 6:1-17 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.1-17), 8:1-5 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.1-5)), seven trumpets (Revelation 8:6-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.6-21), 11:15-19 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2011.15-19)), and seven bowls (Revelation 16:1-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.1-21)) are three succeeding series of end-times judgments from God. The judgments get progressively worse and more devastating as the end times progress. The seven seals, trumpets, and bowls are connected to one another. The seventh seal introduces the seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-5 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.1-5)), and the seventh trumpet introduces the seven bowls (Revelation 11:15-19 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2011.15-19), 15:1-8 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2015.1-8)).

The first four of the seven seals are known as the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. The first seal introduces the Antichrist (Revelation 6:1-2 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.1-2)). The second seal causes great warfare (Revelation 6:3-4 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.3-4)). The third of the seven seals causes famine (Revelation 6:5-6 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.5-6)). The fourth seal brings about plague, further famine, and further warfare (Revelation 6:7-8 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.7-8)).

The fifth seal tells us of those who will be martyred for their faith in Christ during the end times (Revelation 6:9-11 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.9-11)). God hears their cries for justice and will deliver it in His timing—in the form of the sixth seal, along with the trumpet and bowl judgments. When the sixth of the seven seals is broken, a devastating earthquake occurs, causing massive upheaval and terrible devastation—along with unusual astronomical phenomena (Revelation 6:12-14 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.12-14)). Those who survive are right to cry out, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Revelation 6:16-17 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.16-17)).

The seven trumpets are described in Revelation 8:6-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.6-21). The seven trumpets are the “contents” of the seventh seal (Revelation 8:1-5 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.1-5)). The first trumpet causes hail and fire that destroys much of the plant life in the world (Revelation 8:7 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.7)). The second trumpet brings about what seems to be a meteor hitting the oceans and causing the death of much of the world’s sea life (Revelation 8:8-9 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.8-9)). The third trumpet is similar to the second, except it affects the world’s lakes and rivers instead of the oceans (Revelation 8:10-11 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.10-11)).

The fourth of the seven trumpets causes the sun and moon to be darkened (Revelation 8:12 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.12)). The fifth trumpet results in a plague of “demonic locusts” that attack and torture humanity (Revelation 9:1-11 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%209.1-11)). The sixth trumpet releases a demonic army that kills a third of humanity (Revelation 9:12-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%209.12-21)). The seventh trumpet calls forth the seven angels with the seven bowls of God’s wrath (Revelation 11:15-19 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2011.15-19), 15:1-8 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2015.1-8)).

The seven bowl judgments are described in Revelation 16:1-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.1-21). The seven bowl judgments are called forth by the seventh trumpet. The first bowl causes painful sores to break out on humanity (Revelation 16:2 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.2)). The second bowl results in the death of every living thing in the sea (Revelation 16:3 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.3)). The third bowl causes the rivers to turn into blood (Revelation 16:4-7 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.4-7)). The fourth of the seven bowls results in the sun’s heat being intensified and causing great pain (Revelation 16:8-9 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.8-9)). The fifth bowl causes great darkness and an intensification of the sores from the first bowl (Revelation 16:10-11 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.10-11)). The sixth bowl results in the Euphrates River being dried up and the armies of the Antichrist being gathered together to wage the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 16:12-14 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.12-14)). The seventh bowl results in a devastating earthquake followed by giant hailstones (Revelation 16:15-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.15-21)).

Revelation 16:5-7 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.5-7) declares of God, “You are just in these judgments, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged; for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve. … Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments.”

Thanks for the info...but as far as what I read it is affirming the problem I am seeing.

The 144,000 are Jews. From what I am reading, because the "chronological" argument that this article espouses (which I agree with) there is still a problem. The 144,000 are sealed between the 6th and 7th seal. Along with them a great multitude from every tongue tribe and nation. (Revelation 7:9)

The questions remains, who is getting saved after the rapture and before the interlude of Chapter 7 which is between the 6th and 7th seal?

Shonsu

January 21st, 2011, 11:22 AM

Thanks for the info...but as far as what I read it is affirming the problem I am seeing.

The 144,000 are Jews. From what I am reading, because the "chronological" argument that this article espouses (which I agree with) there is still a problem. The 144,000 are sealed between the 6th and 7th seal. Along with them a great multitude from every tongue tribe and nation. (Revelation 7:9)

The questions remains, who is getting saved after the rapture and before the interlude of Chapter 7 which is between the 6th and 7th seal?

I see a lot of assumption that the "multitude" is "millions". Have you ever tried to count 1000 people? How about 10,000? Maybe it is only like 300,000.

Raphael

January 21st, 2011, 11:23 AM

Steve53

January 21st, 2011, 11:33 AM

Thanks for the info...but as far as what I read it is affirming the problem I am seeing.

The 144,000 are Jews. From what I am reading, because the "chronological" argument that this article espouses (which I agree with) there is still a problem. The 144,000 are sealed between the 6th and 7th seal. Along with them a great multitude from every tongue tribe and nation. (Revelation 7:9)

The questions remains, who is getting saved after the rapture and before the interlude of Chapter 7 which is between the 6th and 7th seal?

From OWL's post above -

The calling of the 144k doesn't cause any problem with those martyred as they are independent of one another.

acceptedintheBeloved

January 21st, 2011, 12:12 PM

I hope I'm not interjecting a side issue/question here that doesn't enlighten anyone but myself, but in Matthew 24:12, Jesus says: Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall WAX COLD.

In II Thessalonians 2:3, Paul says,that day shall not come except there come a FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Would it be helpful to clarify at this point distinctions between the two phrases - I mean, is the "falling away" actually the "catching away" (referring to the Rapture)?

I do believe that "the falling away" (KJV) is best translated as "the departure" and indeed refers to our (pre-trib) rapture. :nod

"The love of many shall wax cold" (Matthew 24:12) occurs during the trib (per context; and IMO, esp. during the second half of the trib. Verses 4-8 are "the beginning of sorrows" [the beginning of "labor and delivery"], verses 9-14 are the final birthpangs [so to speak]... then verses 15-21 explain the middle point [of the trib] in more detail.)

As for the 144,000... I agree with those who say that their "sealing" is not about their "salvation" (they are already believers at that point, IMO), but about their "divine protection" through the part of the trib that will be particularly devastating.
From the article posted above by Steve53:

These Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God from all of the divine judgments and from the Antichrist to perform their mission during the tribulation period (see Revelation 6:17, in which people will wonder who can stand from the wrath to come).

That's how I presently understand it... but I'm still studying the particulars, and hope to gain more insight, aided in part by the postings this thread. Thanks! :hat