A question about the martyrs of Revelation 6

[Miggy]

Why do you assume no one will (can?) get saved prior to the sealing of the 144K?

I've come to think that there probably will be a 2 - 3 month period between the Rapture and the confirming of the 7 year agreement. There will be many who will turn to Christ after having witnessed the Rapture. These will be the ones martyred. The sealing of the 144K will be after the Tribulation has officially started.

[resurrection torchlight]

The 144,000 are Jews. From what I am reading, because the "chronological" argument that this article espouses (which I agree with) there is still a problem. The 144,000 are sealed between the 6th and 7th seal. Along with them a great multitude from every tongue tribe and nation. (Revelation 7:9)

I agree, the way I read it, the sealing begins between the 6th and 7th seal and ends when the earth, sea and trees are harmed which is when the trumpets sound.


Revelation 7:3
3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”

The way I look at it, which again is unconventional, is that the trumpets begin to sound after the half hour of silence in heaven,which isn't exactly a half hour rather John says "about a half hour" which is the effect of the seventh seal. This sealing in my opinion occurs during that time of silence in heaven, which I believe represents about the first half of the 70th week. The 144,000 are sealed as a result I believe of the testimony of the 2 witnesses. It is in fact the 144,000 which are being saved on earth during this time of silence. Again I see the great multitude as the ingathered church. The problems with timing at least IMO are a result of the assumption that the multitudes are the tribulation saints, and that the church is actually raptured before the seals. Which I believe actually occur before the 70th week, with the final seal on the scroll removed actually being the first half of the week, the scroll itself is what I believe to be the scroll of cursing spoken of by Zechariah, and represents the curses that will befall the world because of their hardness of heart and their refusal to repent we know these curses as the trumpets and the bowls or vials of wrath.

There will likely be others that are saved on earth during this time as well, scripture is not clear concerning the gentiles and the possibility of their salvation. But we do know that there will be many martyrs who are raised after the tribulation who will die because of their faithfulness and because they refused the mark. Since the woman who flees into the wilderness from the dragon (Rev 12) is likely the same group told to flee Judea in the Gospels when they see the Abomination of Desolation, namely Israel, then the rest of her Children which the dragon pursues with much wrath are likely gentiles who like the male child (Christ the head and body) are her offspring.

RT

[waiting1]

First of all they aren't being martyred, they already were martyred, they are "souls" speaking.

Secondly at least for myself, and virtually no one agrees with me on this here at RR, and for the record I am a proponent of a pre-trib rapture. I just see the trib starting after the 7th seal is removed. I believe that church is raptured after the fifth seal is removed and with the opening of the sixth seal. The seventh seal opening is what IMO begins the 70th week. Therefore these 5th seal martyrs are all those who have been martyred throughout history they help make up the dead in Christ, this would include the disciples whom Jesus addressed in Matthew 24:9. When John sees them receive their white robes- he is witnessing their resurrection and them receiving their regenerated bodies. Later all those multitudes "appear" before the throne waving palm branches dressed in white- they are the sons of the resurrection, both those who were the dead which includes the martyrs in Christ and those who were caught up to join them in the air- the raptured saints. The redeemed of Christ's household.

That is my view, however you are free to disagree as does just about everyone else, no hard feelings on my end.

God bless you
RT

The Rapture happens in Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

And during the Trib the Holy Spirit will be doing like in the Old Testament Times of the Law in that a Person "must work to maintain their salvation" and can lose their Salvation it is not OSAS anymore except for maybe the 144,000 they are the exception. This explains the "falling away" maybe they become fearful over losing their heads and take the MOB, the Bible isn't clear as to why. But think about how hard it will be to stay saved during that time. IMHO

[resurrection torchlight]

The Rapture happens in Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

I know I risk censure, but I disagree, John is caught up into heaven, no where does scripture say that this is the rapture event, and there is no coo-berating evidence there either that says so. John does not make this claim, there is no evidence that John being caught up is symbolic for the rapture, in fact there is much more evidence that supports the multitudes as being the raptured/resurrected saints. What you claim is true is based soley on men's interpretation with little scriptural support.

These multitudes are often said to be the martyrs of the tribulation, but they are not defined as such in fact they are defined as those who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb,


Revelation 7:14
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Now I know that most will say that these cannot be the raptured saints because this passage says they come out of the great tribulation. But the words "come out of" are often used by John to mean "come away from" which has a different meaning,and in this passage can mean they are removed before the great tribulation. They come away from it before it takes place.

The tribulation saints are resurrected after the tribulation in Rev. 20- which clearly defines them as such.

The multitudes are also defined in verse 9 as those who come from every nation. tribe and tongue. The same description given in the song of the elders of the redeemed and How the Lamb- Christ redeemed them.



Revelation 7:9
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;



Revelation 5:9-10
9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”




Just saying

RT

[acceptedintheBeloved]

These multitudes are often said to be the martyrs of the tribulation, but they are not defined as such in fact they are defined as those who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb,


Revelation 7:14
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Now I know that most will say that these cannot be the raptured saints because this passage says they come out of the great tribulation. But the words "come out of" are often used by John to mean "come away from" which has a different meaning,and in this passage can mean they are removed before the great tribulation. They come away from it before it takes place.

The tribulation saints are resurrected after the tribulation in Rev. 20- which clearly defines them as such.


The way I see it is that "great tribulation" is a defining phrase (which I bolded in the quote above).

Jesus, in Matthew 24:21, says (speaking of events which take place at mid-trib), "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." I do believe there is a distinction to be made within the 70th Week, and it is the second half of it that is to be known as "great", according to Jesus. It is "saints" from this time period (or possibly just prior to the "great tribulation"[?], though I tend to believe it means "AT the beginning of it") that I believe Revelation 7:9-17 is referring to. By that, I mean this is when they are seen in heaven. :hat

ETA: Revelation 20:4-6 is when the martyred trib saints are seen to be reigning.

[resurrection torchlight]

The way I see it is that "great tribulation" is a defining phrase (which I bolded in the quote above).

Jesus, in Matthew 24:21, says (speaking of events which take place at mid-trib), "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." I do believe there is a distinction to be made within the 70th Week, and it is the second half of it that is to be known as "great", according to Jesus. It is "saints" from this time period (or possibly just prior to the "great tribulation"[?], though I tend to believe it means "AT the beginning of it") that I believe Revelation 7:9-17 is referring to. By that, I mean this is when they are seen in heaven.

ETA: Revelation 20:4-6 is when the martyred trib saints are seen to be reigning.

Yes I agree that the "great tribulation" as you say is a distinction, I agree that it begins with the second half of the week. My point was that when John uses the phrase that says the multitudes "come out of" it that he may mean they "come away from it" meaning before it takes place. Namely before the 70th week begins. He uses the same Greek word to mean both things in his epistles.

I have a difficult time seeing the multitudes in chapter 7 as the same group mentioned in revelation 20. If you follow the chronology, the trumpets occur after the seals. Which are followed by the bowls. In order to make these multitudes represent the martyrs of Revelation 20- you have to ignore the chronology and put the removal of the seals as occurring throughout the tribulation. Clearly these multitudes arrive in heaven after the opening of the sixth seal and before the opening of the seventh. For the seals to be removed within the tribulation it means that the seals would have to be within the scroll and removed as the scroll is opened. However John sees the unopened scroll with all its seals on the outside of it- not within it. The seals are what keep the scroll from being opened. The scroll itself I believe represents the "great tribulation" though I cannot be dogmatic on that point, only to say that the Philadelphian church is promised to be kept from the hour of temptation, which I believe is the entire 70th week. And the seventh seal is the first half of that hour or the first 3.5 years of the 70th week. With the open scroll then being the 2nd half or the great tribulation. In Heaven the first half seems to John to take only about a half hour of time. The multitudes are in heaven during that time which would be before the great tribulation takes place.

Also Revelation 20:1-6 is when the martyred trib saints are seen to be reigning, but it is also when they are seen to be resurrected. Which again if you follow the chronology happens at the end of the tribulation after the victory at Armageddon, after the antichrist and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire, after Satan is bound.

That is my view.:hat

Rt

[Steve53]

I know I risk censure, but I disagree, John is caught up into heaven, no where does scripture say that this is the rapture event, and there is no coo-berating evidence there either that says so.

You are correct that scripture does not "say" this is the rapture event per se. The rapture is however inferred. Note how the church is no longer mentioned in Revelation until chapter 19 when the armies of heaven (church among them) join Christ upon His return.

[resurrection torchlight]

You are correct that scripture does not "say" this is the rapture event per se. The rapture is however inferred. Note how the church is no longer mentioned in Revelation until chapter 19 when the armies of heaven (church among them) join Christ upon His return.

Yes the church is no longer mentioned after the multitudes appear in heaven- so here we agree. Though the multitudes are not called "the church" they are described as the redeemed and thus are the church I am sure you would agree with this.

RT

[acceptedintheBeloved]

Yes the church is no longer mentioned after the multitudes appear in heaven- so here we agree. Though the multitudes are not called "the church" they are described as the redeemed and thus are the church I am sure you would agree with this.

RT

Do you not consider (any) "saints" to be "the redeemed"...meaning, also the tribulation saints?
As I understand it, only those who have trusted Christ between Pentecost and the Rapture are considered "the Church" (His Body, with Christ as Head)... but "saints" of the tribulation period (not being "the Church") would also be considered "the redeemed" wouldn't they? That's how I see it. :)

I'm still considering your earlier post, but I wanted to mention something about "the hour" you referred to (the Philadelphians promised to be "kept [out] from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them..." Rev. 3:10). I have read some pretty detailed studies (not that I've retained much of them :lol2 ) which state that the trib is made up of "two hours":
"the hour of temptation/trial" (Rev. 3:10; which is the first half of the trib) and,
"the hour of judgment" (Revelation 14:7; which is the second half of the trib; see also Rev. 14:6-7 - notice an "angel fly[ing]... having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation..." at this point).
"Two hours" (which equals 7 biblical years, or 2520 days, total).

The studies were quite interesting (which also involved other time-related issues, although those are beside the point here), but I'm not sure this idea even adds to the topic currently being discussed, although just to say that perhaps "the hour of temptation/trial" is only the FIRST HALF of the trib, and that the entire trib lasts for "two hours" altogether. :)

I'll continue pondering your earlier post... :hat

[Steve53]

.... the redeemed and thus are the church ....


The redeemed include the church. The church does not comprise the whole of the redeemed but rather is a part of the redeemed.