lecoope
January 25th, 2011, 05:48 PM
Hey Everyone,
I asked a previous question and the answers helped affirmed what I was reading. I've come across another question I'm hoping I can get some help with.
1. I'm starting with the assumption that Rev 6 and Matthew 24 are both describing the Tribulation. The passages seem to parallel and I don't think anyone refutes this.
I agree that Rev. 6 and Matt 24 seem to have parallels. But so many fail to read the words of Jesus: "the end is not yet." (Verse 6.) What is Jesus meaning here? It is very simple: exactly what He says: He is NOT YET speaking of end time events. I know everyone supposes that the "end" begins with the first seal, but that is because they don't understand the vision in chapters 4 and 5. And they don't understand "the end is not yet. Please follow:
Matt 24
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Notice the way these verses begin: "for," "then," "And," "And," "but." These words tie ALL these verses back to verse 6, and "the end is not yet." Or "I have not yet begun to speak of "the end." Finally, if verse 13, Jesus mentions "the end." So the "beginning of sorrows" is speaking of the CHURCH AGE, not end times. Therefore, the first five seals are speaking of the church age. Now I am in trouble with the rules, but truth is truth.
Now, does Rev. agree with "the end is not yet?" Surely it does. Please note: Jesus was giving this discourse about 33 AD. It is now after 2000 AD. Almost 2000 years have past and we are STILL not at "the end." The 70th week has not begun. In Revelation, we see in chapters 1-3 that it was STILL about 95 AD. John was still very much alive. But somehow, we we turn the page and read RE 4:1, people ASSUME incorrectly that suddenly John jumped 2000 years! But that CANNOT be the truth, for it was JOHN caught up in Rev. 4:1. Some read the words, "after these things" to assume John meant "after the church age." But in so doing, they are ADDING to the book, and that is forbidden. No, John used this phrase or a very similar one SIX TIMEs in the book, always as a TRANSITIONAL PHRASE to leave one part of the vision and enter another. It carries no special meaning. It just means John is transitioning for the letters to the church, to HIM being caught up. So Rev. 4:1 is still VERY MUCH 95 AD.
Now, notice that in the vision of the throne room, John DID NOT SEE JESUS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER. Yet we have perhaps a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be. So to understand this vision, we MUST UNDERSTAND why Jesus was NOT seen at the right hand of the Father.
Next we see a search was done for one worthy to break the seals. John watched this search in heaven, on earth and under the earth - but it search ENDED IN FAILURE. It is written that John wept much. WHY? Because this search ENDED in failure - for NO MAN WAS FOUND. So now we have a second question. To understand this vision, we MUST KNOW why "no man was found." John was seeing this in 95 AD, LONG AFTER Jesus rose from the dead and became the redeemer. So WHY was no man found?
Finally, we see the Holy Spirit is IN the throne room. Yet Jesus said, when I go up I will send Him down. Yet, there He is, still in the Throne room. Now we have a third question we MUST understand, if we are to understand this vision.
So what is the answer? WHY was Jesus not at the right hand of the Father? WHY was "no man found?" WHY was the Holy Spirit still there? First, please understand, when God shows a vision, that vision can be a vision of the past, a vision of the present or a vision of the future. Everyone ASSUMES this is future, but in truth, it is not. In all of time, from the ages past, before Creation to the ages in the future, there has been one SHORT period of time when Jesus (or the redeemer of the Old Covenant before He took on flesh) was NOT at the right hand of the Father. Just about 33 short years in ALL of time - and before time and after time. So God was showing JOhn a time while Jesus was still on the earth. That is the ONLY time He was NOT at the right hand of the Father. He laid aside His Godly attributes and took on the flesh of MAN.
Next, "NO MAN WA FOUND" because Jesus was STILL ON THE EARTH and had not yet risen from the death to become worthy. So this vision was BEFORE JESUS ROSE from the dead.
Finally, the HOly Spirit was still there, BECAUSE JESUS HAD NOT YET ASCENDED. So we have answered the three questions in the ONLY POSSIBLE way they can be answered.
Now, if we look in verse 5:6, John sees the VERY MOMENT that Jesus ascended into the throne room, having just told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. So the TIME of 5:6 is about 33 AD. Notice the first thing Jesus does after He has ascended: He goes straight to the Father and gets the BOOK.
It is impossible to find 2000 years between any of these verses - for that was simply NOT the intent of the author. So we know that Jesus got the scroll into His hands about 33 AD. Now, the PURPOSE of this vision was to SET THE CONTEXT of the first seal being broken. ANYONe that studies chapters 4 and 5 must come to this conclusion, for it is the intent of the author, and the REASON God shows us a throne room without Jesus at the right Hand of the FAther, and a search that ended in failure.
So we see then, that the first seals are NOT "the end," just as Jesus said, "the end is not yet." Both Matt 24 and Rev. 6 are in perfect agreement. So we know that the white horse and rider CANNOT IN ANY WAY represent the antichrist, for two reasons. First, it was 2000 years too soon. And second, God would NEVER use white to represent evil. No, for Genesis to Revelation, God has used WHITE for righteousness. John used white, I think 16 times to represent righteousness. So the white horse and rider, sent out about 33 AD to conquer, is to represent the church of the Lord Jesus Christ, sent out to conquer nations and make disciples of all nations. Satan (the god of those nations) would surely NOT allow the church free entrance! NO! He put up GATES to stop the church. But NO GATE can stop the church, so we have conquered nation after nations, until today, there is not a nation under the sun where there are no Christians.
Then, the next three horses and riders represent the devil's attempt to stop the church. In fact, John shows us that these three ride together, while the first rider rides alone.
Finally, we get to the 5th seal, who are the martyrs OF THE CHURCH AGE. Notice, they are told they must wait a long time, until the final martyr is killed as they are. But what does that mean? They were killed in many ways! No, it does not mean the way they are put to death, it means killed as a martyr if the CHURCH AGE. When the last martyr of the church age is killed, THEN the church age is OVER.
The Martyrs of Revelation 6
Jesus clearly spoke about the increased persecution of Christians in Matthew 24...As I read Revelation 6 I see that as the parallel passage of this intense persecution...PROBLEM
It isn't until Revelation 7 that there is an interlude, the 144,000 are sealed, and people from every tribe and nation are saved. QUESTION...
Who is being martyred in Revelation 6:9-11 and Matthew 24:9 if Christians have been raptured and the 144,000 come after the 5th seal?
Who is being martyred? Of course they are CHURCH AGE martyrs. Now, and strong HINT - not mine but John's: what is the next major event after the 5th seal?
WHY would God close the barn door AFTER the horses have all escaped the barn? (sorry, I was a farmer.) No, WHY would God seal people for their protection IN THE MIDDLE OF the week? Well, He would NOT! The truth is, John as NOT YET STARTED the 70th week. So they are sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgements which come during the first half of the week.
Picture a play, when the curtain is drawn after one part of the play. WHAT happens behind the drawn curtain? Of course, they are REARRANGING the set, to prepare for the next act. That is exactly what John does between the 6th and 7th seal. You see, the 7th seal officially opens the Day of the Lord and the 70th week. So there are two events that absolutely MUST take place before the 7th seal is broken: first the church MUST BE TAKEN OUT. And second, the sealing of the 144,000 MUST be finished. And it is.
Now another hint: when we read the two words together, "great tribulation," do they ALWAYS mean that time Jesus mentioned that will begin with the abomination?
Answer: absolutely NOT. Jesus mentioned those two words together in reference to a harlot in one of the churches in chapter 2. If she did not quit, and the MEN with her, God would throw them into "great tribulaltion." Notice, God was not saying He would keep them alive for 2000 years so they would face the Beast!! No no no!! God was saying that He could create great tribulation any time. So what did John mean that these "came out of GT?" It is very simple. If you understand John's chronology, He has NOT YET begun the 70th week, and certainly has not yet arrived at the midpoint. (John gets to the midpoint in chapter 11.) So John cannot possibly mean the GT that Jesus spoke of coming after the abomination. No, what John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture, people will be murdered (Martyred) for their testimony around the world. It is that way in half the world today, and it WILL get worse.
Now, please go back to chapter 7 and read about everything about this great crowd, too large to number. Notice that it is in chapter 7, while the Beast is way off in chapter 13. Notice that everything about them seems to fit the church perfectly except for those two words, great tribulation. But now you know that these two words don't always mean those dreaded days that follow the abomination.
This is the intent of the author. It is exactly what is written. I have not added or taken away. We as pretribbers have MISSED the mark in Revelation, and attempted to start the "end" too soon.
Coop
I asked a previous question and the answers helped affirmed what I was reading. I've come across another question I'm hoping I can get some help with.
1. I'm starting with the assumption that Rev 6 and Matthew 24 are both describing the Tribulation. The passages seem to parallel and I don't think anyone refutes this.
I agree that Rev. 6 and Matt 24 seem to have parallels. But so many fail to read the words of Jesus: "the end is not yet." (Verse 6.) What is Jesus meaning here? It is very simple: exactly what He says: He is NOT YET speaking of end time events. I know everyone supposes that the "end" begins with the first seal, but that is because they don't understand the vision in chapters 4 and 5. And they don't understand "the end is not yet. Please follow:
Matt 24
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Notice the way these verses begin: "for," "then," "And," "And," "but." These words tie ALL these verses back to verse 6, and "the end is not yet." Or "I have not yet begun to speak of "the end." Finally, if verse 13, Jesus mentions "the end." So the "beginning of sorrows" is speaking of the CHURCH AGE, not end times. Therefore, the first five seals are speaking of the church age. Now I am in trouble with the rules, but truth is truth.
Now, does Rev. agree with "the end is not yet?" Surely it does. Please note: Jesus was giving this discourse about 33 AD. It is now after 2000 AD. Almost 2000 years have past and we are STILL not at "the end." The 70th week has not begun. In Revelation, we see in chapters 1-3 that it was STILL about 95 AD. John was still very much alive. But somehow, we we turn the page and read RE 4:1, people ASSUME incorrectly that suddenly John jumped 2000 years! But that CANNOT be the truth, for it was JOHN caught up in Rev. 4:1. Some read the words, "after these things" to assume John meant "after the church age." But in so doing, they are ADDING to the book, and that is forbidden. No, John used this phrase or a very similar one SIX TIMEs in the book, always as a TRANSITIONAL PHRASE to leave one part of the vision and enter another. It carries no special meaning. It just means John is transitioning for the letters to the church, to HIM being caught up. So Rev. 4:1 is still VERY MUCH 95 AD.
Now, notice that in the vision of the throne room, John DID NOT SEE JESUS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER. Yet we have perhaps a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be. So to understand this vision, we MUST UNDERSTAND why Jesus was NOT seen at the right hand of the Father.
Next we see a search was done for one worthy to break the seals. John watched this search in heaven, on earth and under the earth - but it search ENDED IN FAILURE. It is written that John wept much. WHY? Because this search ENDED in failure - for NO MAN WAS FOUND. So now we have a second question. To understand this vision, we MUST KNOW why "no man was found." John was seeing this in 95 AD, LONG AFTER Jesus rose from the dead and became the redeemer. So WHY was no man found?
Finally, we see the Holy Spirit is IN the throne room. Yet Jesus said, when I go up I will send Him down. Yet, there He is, still in the Throne room. Now we have a third question we MUST understand, if we are to understand this vision.
So what is the answer? WHY was Jesus not at the right hand of the Father? WHY was "no man found?" WHY was the Holy Spirit still there? First, please understand, when God shows a vision, that vision can be a vision of the past, a vision of the present or a vision of the future. Everyone ASSUMES this is future, but in truth, it is not. In all of time, from the ages past, before Creation to the ages in the future, there has been one SHORT period of time when Jesus (or the redeemer of the Old Covenant before He took on flesh) was NOT at the right hand of the Father. Just about 33 short years in ALL of time - and before time and after time. So God was showing JOhn a time while Jesus was still on the earth. That is the ONLY time He was NOT at the right hand of the Father. He laid aside His Godly attributes and took on the flesh of MAN.
Next, "NO MAN WA FOUND" because Jesus was STILL ON THE EARTH and had not yet risen from the death to become worthy. So this vision was BEFORE JESUS ROSE from the dead.
Finally, the HOly Spirit was still there, BECAUSE JESUS HAD NOT YET ASCENDED. So we have answered the three questions in the ONLY POSSIBLE way they can be answered.
Now, if we look in verse 5:6, John sees the VERY MOMENT that Jesus ascended into the throne room, having just told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. So the TIME of 5:6 is about 33 AD. Notice the first thing Jesus does after He has ascended: He goes straight to the Father and gets the BOOK.
It is impossible to find 2000 years between any of these verses - for that was simply NOT the intent of the author. So we know that Jesus got the scroll into His hands about 33 AD. Now, the PURPOSE of this vision was to SET THE CONTEXT of the first seal being broken. ANYONe that studies chapters 4 and 5 must come to this conclusion, for it is the intent of the author, and the REASON God shows us a throne room without Jesus at the right Hand of the FAther, and a search that ended in failure.
So we see then, that the first seals are NOT "the end," just as Jesus said, "the end is not yet." Both Matt 24 and Rev. 6 are in perfect agreement. So we know that the white horse and rider CANNOT IN ANY WAY represent the antichrist, for two reasons. First, it was 2000 years too soon. And second, God would NEVER use white to represent evil. No, for Genesis to Revelation, God has used WHITE for righteousness. John used white, I think 16 times to represent righteousness. So the white horse and rider, sent out about 33 AD to conquer, is to represent the church of the Lord Jesus Christ, sent out to conquer nations and make disciples of all nations. Satan (the god of those nations) would surely NOT allow the church free entrance! NO! He put up GATES to stop the church. But NO GATE can stop the church, so we have conquered nation after nations, until today, there is not a nation under the sun where there are no Christians.
Then, the next three horses and riders represent the devil's attempt to stop the church. In fact, John shows us that these three ride together, while the first rider rides alone.
Finally, we get to the 5th seal, who are the martyrs OF THE CHURCH AGE. Notice, they are told they must wait a long time, until the final martyr is killed as they are. But what does that mean? They were killed in many ways! No, it does not mean the way they are put to death, it means killed as a martyr if the CHURCH AGE. When the last martyr of the church age is killed, THEN the church age is OVER.
The Martyrs of Revelation 6
Jesus clearly spoke about the increased persecution of Christians in Matthew 24...As I read Revelation 6 I see that as the parallel passage of this intense persecution...PROBLEM
It isn't until Revelation 7 that there is an interlude, the 144,000 are sealed, and people from every tribe and nation are saved. QUESTION...
Who is being martyred in Revelation 6:9-11 and Matthew 24:9 if Christians have been raptured and the 144,000 come after the 5th seal?
Who is being martyred? Of course they are CHURCH AGE martyrs. Now, and strong HINT - not mine but John's: what is the next major event after the 5th seal?
WHY would God close the barn door AFTER the horses have all escaped the barn? (sorry, I was a farmer.) No, WHY would God seal people for their protection IN THE MIDDLE OF the week? Well, He would NOT! The truth is, John as NOT YET STARTED the 70th week. So they are sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgements which come during the first half of the week.
Picture a play, when the curtain is drawn after one part of the play. WHAT happens behind the drawn curtain? Of course, they are REARRANGING the set, to prepare for the next act. That is exactly what John does between the 6th and 7th seal. You see, the 7th seal officially opens the Day of the Lord and the 70th week. So there are two events that absolutely MUST take place before the 7th seal is broken: first the church MUST BE TAKEN OUT. And second, the sealing of the 144,000 MUST be finished. And it is.
Now another hint: when we read the two words together, "great tribulation," do they ALWAYS mean that time Jesus mentioned that will begin with the abomination?
Answer: absolutely NOT. Jesus mentioned those two words together in reference to a harlot in one of the churches in chapter 2. If she did not quit, and the MEN with her, God would throw them into "great tribulaltion." Notice, God was not saying He would keep them alive for 2000 years so they would face the Beast!! No no no!! God was saying that He could create great tribulation any time. So what did John mean that these "came out of GT?" It is very simple. If you understand John's chronology, He has NOT YET begun the 70th week, and certainly has not yet arrived at the midpoint. (John gets to the midpoint in chapter 11.) So John cannot possibly mean the GT that Jesus spoke of coming after the abomination. No, what John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture, people will be murdered (Martyred) for their testimony around the world. It is that way in half the world today, and it WILL get worse.
Now, please go back to chapter 7 and read about everything about this great crowd, too large to number. Notice that it is in chapter 7, while the Beast is way off in chapter 13. Notice that everything about them seems to fit the church perfectly except for those two words, great tribulation. But now you know that these two words don't always mean those dreaded days that follow the abomination.
This is the intent of the author. It is exactly what is written. I have not added or taken away. We as pretribbers have MISSED the mark in Revelation, and attempted to start the "end" too soon.
Coop