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Steve53
January 26th, 2011, 08:36 AM
Personally .....

We has rulz - For the moment however, will we will address this topic as there seems to be enough error here that now might be a good time to correct same - A note of caution: This does not mean this subject is open for debate - it is not.

http://www.gotquestions.org/surviving-end-times.html

Question: "Surviving the end times - what do I need to know?"

Answer: Oftentimes, people experience anxiety when they think about the future; however, it does not have to be that way. For those who know God, thoughts concerning the future bring about eagerness and comfort. As an example, describing a woman who knows and trusts God, Proverbs 31:25 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Proverbs%2031.25) says, “She smiles at the future.”

The two key thoughts to keep in mind about the future are, first, God is sovereign and in control over everything. He knows the future and absolutely controls what will happen. The Bible says, “Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’ . . . Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it” (Isaiah 46:9–11 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Isaiah%2046.9%E2%80%9311), emphasis added).

The second thing to remember about the future is that the Bible outlines in specific details exactly what will occur in what Scripture calls “the end times” or “latter days.” Because the Bible is God’s revelation to humankind, and because God knows and controls the future (as Isaiah says above), then it stands to reason that when the Bible speaks about what will occur in the future, we can believe it. Concerning predictions about the future, the Bible says, “No prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Peter 1:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/2%20Peter%201.21)). This truth is made evident by the fact that, unlike supposed prophecies made in other religions or by individuals (e.g., Nostradamus) who said they could predict the future that did not come true, the Bible has never once been wrong – every time the Bible has predicted a future event, it happened exactly as Scripture said it would.

When considering how to understand and survive in the end times, three key questions need to be answered:
1. How should I interpret what the Bible says about the future (biblical prophecy)?
2. What does the Bible say will happen in the end times?
3. How should what the Bible says about the future affect the way I live today?

How to Interpret Biblical Prophecy
There are a number of opinions and viewpoints that surround what interpretative methods students of the Bible should use when reading passages in Scripture that concern the end times. While there are good people espousing different beliefs, there is good evidence to believe that biblical prophecy should be interpreted (1) literally, (2) with a futurist view, and (3) in what is called a “premillennial” manner. With respect to a literal interpretation, it should be understood that there are some 300 prophecies that concern the first coming of Christ, all of which were literally fulfilled. The predictions surrounding the Messiah’s birth, life, betrayal, death and resurrection were not fulfilled allegorically or in a spiritual manner. Jesus literally was born in Bethlehem, performed miracles, was betrayed by a close friend for 30 pieces of silver, was pierced in His hands and feet, died with thieves, was buried in a rich man’s tomb, and was resurrected three days after His death. All of these prophecies were predicted hundreds and thousands of years before Jesus was born and were literally fulfilled. And while, indeed, there is symbolism used in various prophecies (e.g., dragons, horsemen, etc.), all of it portrays literal beings or events, in much the same way that Jesus is spoken of as a lion and a lamb.

Regarding a futurist view, the Bible clearly states that prophetic books like Daniel and Revelation contain not only renditions of past, historical events, but also things that will happen in the future. When John was given his commands for the churches of his day, he then received his visions concerning the futuristic things that would occur in the end times and was told, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things” (Revelation 4:1 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%204.1), emphasis added).

But perhaps even a stronger argument for a futurist view revolves around the promises God made to Abraham (cf. Genesis 12 & 15) concerning the land of Israel. Since God’s covenant with Abraham was unconditional, and His promises have not yet been fulfilled to the Israeli people, then a futurist view of Israel and the prophecies surrounding the people of Israel’s return and possession of Palestine must occur.

Lastly, with respect to prophecy being interpreted in a “premillennial” manner, this means that Jesus Christ will return and then reign over the earth for 1,000 years in a perfect rule. Five times in Revelation 20, the Scripture says that Jesus will return first and then reign for 1,000 years (hence the name “pre-,“ indicating “before,” and “millennial,” which means “1,000”). There is no reason to take what Scripture says in any other way except that Jesus will first return and then begin a 1,000-year rule over the earth.

But what does the Bible say will happen before then?

What Does the Bible say will happen in the End Times?
Sadly, the Bible predicts a downward spiral of catastrophes, human sin, and religious apostasy before Christ returns. Paul writes, “But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. . . . evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived” (2 Timothy 3:1 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/2%20Timothy%203.1), 13 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/2%20Timothy%203.13)). The world will continue to reject God, His Word, and His people.

Some day in the future – a day no one knows – God will end the Church age which began in the first century on Pentecost (cf. Acts 2) with an event known as the Rapture. This will be when God removes all believers in Christ from the earth in preparation for His final judgments. Of the Rapture, Paul says, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:14–18 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/1%20Thessalonians%204.14%E2%80%9318)).

The erosion of peace and increase of turmoil that precedes the Rapture will reach epic proportions when untold numbers of people disappear from earth. Such a vacuum will cause panic and scream for a strong leader who will have answers to all the world’s questions and problems. The setting of the stage for this leader has been in progress for some time, as historian Arnold Toynbee has noted: “By forcing on mankind more and more lethal weapons, and at the same time making the world more and more interdependent economically, technology has brought mankind to such a degree of distress that we are ripe for the deifying of any new Caesar who might succeed in giving the world unity and peace.” Out of a revived Roman Empire, one that is organized in a European ten-constituency fashion (cf. Daniel 7:24 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Daniel%207.24); Revelation 13:1 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2013.1)), the Antichrist will arise and sign a covenant with the nation of Israel, which will officially begin God’s prophetic seven-year countdown to Christ’s second coming (cf. Daniel 9:27 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Daniel%209.27)).

For three and a half years, the Antichrist will reign over the earth with a false peace being promised, but a peace that is nothing but a trap for the people of the earth as the Bible says: “While they are saying, ‘Peace and safety!’ then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape” (1 Thessalonians 5:3 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/1%20Thessalonians%205.3)). Wars, earthquakes, famines, and more will escalate (cf. Matthew 24:7 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Matthew%2024.7)) until the end Antichrist’s 3.5-year reign, when he will enter a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself to be God and demand worship (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/2%20Thessalonians%202.4); Matthew 24: 15 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Matthew%2024.%2015)). It is at that point that the Creator and true God responds to the challenge. For another 3.5 years, a Great Tribulation will occur such as has never before come upon the earth, one which the prophets and Jesus predicted: “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short” (Matthew 24:21–22 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Matthew%2024.21%E2%80%9322)).

Untold loss of life and destruction of the earth will occur during this period. Also, many will come to faith in Christ, yet many will do so at cost of their lives. But God’s sovereign hand will still be in control as the Lord Himself gathers the unbelieving armies of the world together for His collective judgment of them. Of this event, the prophet Joel wrote, “I will gather all the nations And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there On behalf of My people” (Joel 3:2 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Joel%203.2)). John records the battle this way: “And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon [Satan] and out of the mouth of the beast [the Antichrist] and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. (‘Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.’) And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon” (Revelation 16:13–16 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.13%E2%80%9316)).

At this point, the Messiah Jesus will return, destroy His enemies, and claim the world, which is rightfully His. John’s revelation describes this glorious event in this manner: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, ‘KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.’ Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in mid-heaven, ‘Come, assemble for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.’ And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh” (Revelation 19:11–21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2019.11%E2%80%9321)).

After Christ has defeated all the armies gathered in the valley of Armageddon, He will reign for one thousand years in a perfect rule with His saints and fully restore Israel to her land. At the end of a thousand years, a final judgment of the nations and all remaining mankind will occur, which is then followed with either an eternal state spent with God for those who follow Him or an eternal separation from Him for those who do not (cf. Revelation 20-21).

The above are not speculations or possibilities – they describe exactly and precisely what will take place in the future. Just as all prophecies came true and were fulfilled in Christ’s first coming, there is no reason to believe anything will be different with those that speak of His return to the earth.

Given the truth behind these prophecies, what impact should they have on us now? Peter asks the question in this manner: “Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! ” (2 Peter 3:11–12 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/2%20Peter%203.11%E2%80%9312)).

The Effect of Bible Prophecy on Us Today
There are four effects that the truths of Bible prophecy should have on us today. The first is obedience, which is what Peter speaks about in the verses above. Jesus continually tells us to be ready for His coming, which could come at any time (cf. Mark 13:33-37 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Mark%2013.33-37)) and to live in a way in which we are not ashamed of our lives and behavior.

The second is worship. Because God has provided a way to escape His end-time judgments, we need to be sure we receive His free gift of salvation offered through Jesus now and live in gratitude before Him. John shows this in his description of heavenly worship for Jesus: “And they sang a new song, saying, ‘Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation’” (Revelation 5:9 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%205.9)).

The third is proclamation. The message of God’s salvation and the truth of His second coming need to be proclaimed for all to hear, especially to those who don’t yet believe so they can turn to God and be saved from His coming wrath. Revelation 22:10 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2022.10) says, "And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.”

The last effect God’s prophetic Word should have on us is service. All believers should be diligent about carrying out God’s will and performing good works that are an outworking of the salvation that has taken place in each Christian’s heart. Part of Christ’s judgments will be of the works performed by believers. They do not determine a Christian’s acceptance into Heaven, but show what each believer did with the gifts and opportunities given him or her by God. Paul says of this judgment, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (2 Corinthians 5:10 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/2%20Corinthians%205.10)).

All of this can be summed up with the same thoughts that began this article. God is sovereign over all events and people of the world, He is firmly in control of everything, and will bring a perfect end to everything He has started. An old Christian song puts it like this: “All is God’s creation … Fashioned by One hand … Satan and Salvation … Under One command.”

The fact that the Bible is a supernatural book is evidenced by the truth that every prophecy conveyed by it to date has been fulfilled. This being the case, it is reasonable and rational to conclude that what it says about the prophecies for the end times will occur as well. For those who know Jesus and have trusted Him as their Lord and Savior, His coming will be their blessed hope (cf. Titus 2:13 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Titus%202.13)). But for those who have willingly rejected Christ, He will be their holy terror (cf. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/2%20Thessalonians%201.8)). The bottom line is this: to survive the end times, make sure you are a believer in Christ: “For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thessalonians 5:9 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/1%20Thessalonians%205.9)).

Steve53
January 26th, 2011, 08:37 AM
http://www.gotquestions.org/seven-seals-trumpets.html

Question: "What are the seven seals and seven trumpets in the Book of Revelation?"

Answer: The seven seals (Revelation 6:1-17 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.1-17), 8:1-5 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.1-5)), seven trumpets (Revelation 8:6-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.6-21), 11:15-19 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2011.15-19)), and seven bowls (Revelation 16:1-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.1-21)) are three succeeding series of end-times judgments from God. The judgments get progressively worse and more devastating as the end times progress. The seven seals, trumpets, and bowls are connected to one another. The seventh seal introduces the seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-5 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.1-5)), and the seventh trumpet introduces the seven bowls (Revelation 11:15-19 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2011.15-19), 15:1-8 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2015.1-8)).

The first four of the seven seals are known as the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. The first seal introduces the Antichrist (Revelation 6:1-2 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.1-2)). The second seal causes great warfare (Revelation 6:3-4 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.3-4)). The third of the seven seals causes famine (Revelation 6:5-6 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.5-6)). The fourth seal brings about plague, further famine, and further warfare (Revelation 6:7-8 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.7-8)).

The fifth seal tells us of those who will be martyred for their faith in Christ during the end times (Revelation 6:9-11 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.9-11)). God hears their cries for justice and will deliver it in His timing—in the form of the sixth seal, along with the trumpet and bowl judgments. When the sixth of the seven seals is broken, a devastating earthquake occurs, causing massive upheaval and terrible devastation—along with unusual astronomical phenomena (Revelation 6:12-14 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.12-14)). Those who survive are right to cry out, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Revelation 6:16-17 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%206.16-17)).

The seven trumpets are described in Revelation 8:6-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.6-21). The seven trumpets are the “contents” of the seventh seal (Revelation 8:1-5 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.1-5)). The first trumpet causes hail and fire that destroys much of the plant life in the world (Revelation 8:7 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.7)). The second trumpet brings about what seems to be a meteor hitting the oceans and causing the death of much of the world’s sea life (Revelation 8:8-9 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.8-9)). The third trumpet is similar to the second, except it affects the world’s lakes and rivers instead of the oceans (Revelation 8:10-11 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.10-11)).

The fourth of the seven trumpets causes the sun and moon to be darkened (Revelation 8:12 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%208.12)). The fifth trumpet results in a plague of “demonic locusts” that attack and torture humanity (Revelation 9:1-11 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%209.1-11)). The sixth trumpet releases a demonic army that kills a third of humanity (Revelation 9:12-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%209.12-21)). The seventh trumpet calls forth the seven angels with the seven bowls of God’s wrath (Revelation 11:15-19 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2011.15-19), 15:1-8 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2015.1-8)).

The seven bowl judgments are described in Revelation 16:1-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.1-21). The seven bowl judgments are called forth by the seventh trumpet. The first bowl causes painful sores to break out on humanity (Revelation 16:2 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.2)). The second bowl results in the death of every living thing in the sea (Revelation 16:3 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.3)). The third bowl causes the rivers to turn into blood (Revelation 16:4-7 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.4-7)). The fourth of the seven bowls results in the sun’s heat being intensified and causing great pain (Revelation 16:8-9 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.8-9)). The fifth bowl causes great darkness and an intensification of the sores from the first bowl (Revelation 16:10-11 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.10-11)). The sixth bowl results in the Euphrates River being dried up and the armies of the Antichrist being gathered together to wage the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 16:12-14 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.12-14)). The seventh bowl results in a devastating earthquake followed by giant hailstones (Revelation 16:15-21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.15-21)).

Revelation 16:5-7 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Revelation%2016.5-7) declares of God, “You are just in these judgments, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged; for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve. … Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments.”

acceptedintheBeloved
January 26th, 2011, 09:18 AM
A brief quote by William Kelly, for consideration:


[Regarding Revelation 7]

I trust, then, it has been shown plainly that the subject of this chapter is not the church, but Israel and the Gentiles blessed as such. Indeed, one need not hesitate to say that, if any person supposed Rev. 7 treated of the church, it would argue that he had no true idea of its nature and calling — that he had no conception of what the Holy Ghost connects with the body of Christ here below.* The church of God is essentially a heavenly body that entirely sets aside all distinction of Jew and Gentile. The scope, if not object, of this chapter shows that these distinctions reappear at the time that is referred to. We have first a company of Israel, then an innumerable crowd out of the Gentiles.

Steve53
January 26th, 2011, 09:38 AM
A brief quote by William Kelly, for consideration:


Doesn't change the timing one bit.

acceptedintheBeloved
January 26th, 2011, 09:51 AM
Doesn't change the timing one bit.

I'm not sure what your point is, but my point in posting the quote was to show that this (Rev. 7) has nothing to do with the Church/Church age-believers, but instead occurs during the trib, when the Jew/Gentile distinction is clearly back in play, and as shown in the text.:hat

Buzzardhut
January 26th, 2011, 12:46 PM
It does however violate doctrine to say that at some future time Jesus will enter the heavenly tabernacle as the Lamb that was slain to redeem mankind. Scripture is clear on this issue- it only happened once. The next time He leaves heaven and returns- it will not be in reference to sin.
Jesus is presented as the lamb slain (before) the foundations of the world - eternal timelessness, but not worthy to open the seals until His resurrection, which is NT, after OT



You will note the positional change in the seven Spirits of God in Revelation chapter four- this is another indication of what John witnesses. First He sees them as seven lamps of fire before the throne, then after the Lamb enters he sees them as the eyes and horns on the lamb, which are then described as the seven Spirits of God sent into all the world. This is the New covenant positional change in the work of the Holy Spirit.

Now it is possible that Jesus after having been resurrected into heaven, did not remove the seals until some future time. However the effects of these horsemen seals was evident in the old testament. If one conducts a study (which I have) you will find that the plagues brought on by the seals are the very punishments God dictates to Israel in the old testament for disobedience. Wild beasts, famine, the sword, death and pestilence. I do not necessarily agree with Coop that the rider on the white horse represents the church- though he could be right. I believe rather that this conqueror represents conquering nations- ordained by God to punish the inhabitants of earth for their disobedience. You will note that the fourth horsemen kills with the effects of the other seal horses. Famine, sword, pestilence (means death) and wild beasts. These beasts iMO identify the conqueror who rides the white horse. Gentile nations are often described as wild beasts in the old testament, in fact Daniel the prophet identifies the final kingdoms as "wild beasts". We can all say without doubt that the effects of the seals are with us today and have been throughout the church age and before. Though like birth pains they will increase in intensity as the 70th week approaches, and their effects will continue throughout the tribulation until all that will, are born into the kingdom of God.

Therefore Just as there was a positional change in the holy Spirit when the Lamb entered the heavenly tabernacle, so there may be a positional change in the four horsemen- they are now sent out by Christ- who is the one who removes the seals from the scroll. There are incidents of colored horses spoken of in the OT as well who patrol the earth. These seal horses therefore could have been released soon after Jesus took the scroll and ride throughout the church age accomplishing God's righteous will. This is by the way the view of Mr. Billy Graham or at least was in the past. Billy is/was a preterist. The seals are yet to be opened, Eschatology is linear and in our historical position, the horses are still in their stables.

Steve53
January 26th, 2011, 01:08 PM
I'm not sure what your point is, but my point in posting the quote was to show that this (Rev. 7) has nothing to do with the Church/Church age-believers, but instead occurs during the trib, when the Jew/Gentile distinction is clearly back in play, and as shown in the text.:hat

Your point was not missed. As your post came right after a timing issue/question, it is important that we keep things clear for those following along.

resurrection torchlight
January 26th, 2011, 03:23 PM
Billy is/was a preterist. The seals are yet to be opened, Eschatology is linear and in our historical position, the horses are still in their stables.

I read an early book he wrote (can't remember the name of it now) but he must have not always been a preterist. I know the topic is not up for debate, but no one that I have asked can prove from scripture that the horsemen are still in their stables. And not all of eschatology is linear either- for instance revelation 12 speaks of an event from the past- Satan's fall, yes he will be cast from heaven to earth in the future but the passage that talks about him sweeping away 1/3 of the angels with his tail- that is an event from the past- when he rebelled against God. It also speaks of the male child (Christ) being caught up to heaven which we all know was an event from John's past. Not linear.

I will abide by the rules and go no further here, if someone wishes they can PM me to continue the debate.

RT

Steve53
January 26th, 2011, 03:44 PM
..... can prove from scripture that the horsemen are still in their stables.....

Look up-thread ^^^^^:hat

lecoope
January 26th, 2011, 05:10 PM
Yes, you have cleared that up for me (for the most part). Thank you. :hat

One problem I'm having, though, is that your friend seems to be focusing on the "ek" word, which I agree can be if-y... but seems to be avoiding what I see to be the primary difference between the two passages in question (Rev. 3:10 and Rev. 7:14):

"I will keep thee [out] from the hour..." (keep - tēreō - Strong's G5083)

and

"these are... coming out of the great tribulation..." (coming - erchomai - Strong's G2064)



Even if the "out of/from" ("ek") word is to be equated in both passages, this does not explain the difference between the very important verbs preceding them:

"[I will] keep" and "[these are] com[ing]" which verbs have very different meanings.


Continuing to search this out... :glasses


I still think you are looking at this (ek) from the wrong perspective. You are still taking John to mean by "great tribulation" the same great tribulation Jesus spoke of that will start with the abomination and fill much of the last half of the 70th week. However, if you understand John's chronology, He does not even get to the midpoint until chapter 11, and does not introduce the Beast that causes those days of great tribulation until chapter 13. In fact, the real days of GT do not start until the end of chapter 14, or the start of chapter 15. At the start of chapter 15 we see some that have been murdered by the Beast, people who got victory over him by way of death.

So it is really very poor exegesis to think John was speaking of those days of GT that follow the abomination. My point is that these two words, "great tribulation" do not always mean those days Jesus spoke of. In fact, these two words together was NOT GOOD ENOUGH for Jesus, He went on to say that there will NEVER be days like these. Then again we see these two words in Rev. 2. And that was almost 2000 years ago.

My whole point is, it does not matter whether or not they were IN this tribulation. In fact, the simplest reading is that this great crowd was IN GT, but got raptured OUT of it. All John is telling us is that people will be murdered for their testimony around the world by the time the rapture comes. In other words, it will be great tribulation at the time of the rapture, but this will STILL BE BEFORE THE 70th week and before the Beast is revealed.

Note: Jesus did NOT put a title on the last half of the week.

Coop