A question about the martyrs of Revelation 6

[Miggy]

I said satan's fall & Jesus' rez is a past event for us and John, Jesus overcame sin and death on the cross, Jesus was always eternally worthy but became physically worthy 2,000 yrs ago, when the call for someone worthy was made John was shown the travesty of not having anyone worthy but Jesus steps in since He is worthy, it was an illustration + vision + actual event for John to share with us.

Buzz, I've posted these same thoughts when this subject came up once before, but you said it better than I did.

Also, Thru The Bible started Revelation a few weeks ago, and I heard an interesting observation J Vernon McGee made that relates to this, although he wasn't speaking specifically to the point of when this took place. He said, notice that Jesus stands to open the seal. When Jesus ascended, He sat down at the right hand of the Father. Now, he stands, ready to take action, ready to act as Judge during the Tribulation period.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

Buzz, I've posted these same thoughts when this subject came up once before, but you said it better than I did.

Also, Thru The Bible started Revelation a few weeks ago, and I heard an interesting observation J Vernon McGee made that relates to this, although he wasn't speaking specifically to the point of when this took place. He said, notice that Jesus stands to open the seal. When Jesus ascended, He sat down at the right hand of the Father. Now, he stands, ready to take action, ready to act as Judge during the Tribulation period.

:thumb Miggy, that is exactly the way I understand it. The fact that He is shown standing, rather than seated as He had been right after His ascension (and throughout the Church age). "Standing" in readiness for the time of judgment. :nod

[Steve53]

I am, as my position states, a traditional pre-tribber seeking answers to very difficult questions.

I've learned from a long time in ministry and the church that people build theological frame work off of assumptions about particular passages. I'm passionate about making it all make sense, at least as much as possible.


Our rules and doctrinal statements are in place, because we too, are passionate. We've established those parameters for good reasons and expect all our posters to abide by same.

We don't shy away from honest questions, but once those questions have been answered, we must request, that folks realize that to continue to harp on points of disagreement only serves to sow discord and since that runs counter to our purposes here, we will intervene and moderate to clarify, otherwise mitigate, or stop such activities as necessary.

[grapplewithGod]

Our rules and doctrinal statements are in place, because we too, are passionate. We've established those parameters for good reasons and expect all our posters to abide by same.

We don't shy away from honest questions, but once those questions have been answered, we must request, that folks realize that to continue to harp on points of disagreement only serves to sow discord and since that runs counter to our purposes here, we will intervene and moderate to clarify, otherwise mitigate, or stop such activities as necessary.

Okay.

[Miggy]

J Vernon McGee went over this again today (well, he didn't actually do it, the show did :lol2) - what timing! Went over the conveniently given and logical division for the book of Revelation - that which was, which is, and is to come. Revelation 4 and on is that which is to come.

Also, the raptured church is seated around the throne of God while the seals are opened.

[Buzzardhut]

Buzz, I've posted these same thoughts when this subject came up once before, but you said it better than I did.

Also, Thru The Bible started Revelation a few weeks ago, and I heard an interesting observation J Vernon McGee made that relates to this, although he wasn't speaking specifically to the point of when this took place. He said, notice that Jesus stands to open the seal. When Jesus ascended, He sat down at the right hand of the Father. Now, he stands, ready to take action, ready to act as Judge during the Tribulation period.
correct
when Jesus stands... Look out! :fear


Buzzardhut...that's a huge assumption to make...not sure where you get that. I am pre-trib but only because I grew up that way. I'm in a season of searching the scriptures, and I'm asking honest questions that, in my mind, don't have solid answers.

I'm not sure I understand how you interpret a question about the chronology of Revelation 6 as a differing eschatological view. I will say I have had multiple times that, when an honest question is posed, I am quickly accused of being "prewrath" or "post trib."

I will say I'm not as dogmatic as you are, however, I figure this is the place (rr) to get honest questions answered.

As a follow up to a statement you made on Matthew and Revelation...

You interpret Jesus discourse in Matthew 24 as a statement describing the church age and a jump to the middle of the tribulation, where Jesus references the abomination of desolation? It seems less clumsy to me to say Jesus is describing in Matthew 24 the tribulation which fits nicely with Revelation 6.

Otherwise, I get tripped up at the jump to the Daniel Reference.

Again, an honest question, these are the things I read that I'm trying to get answers to.

Jesus speaks in broad brush strokes then goes back to fill in the details, it is how He taught, we are conditioned to read in morning newspaper style but that is not Jesus' style


Sorry about that. I'm trying to highlight the problems. Sometimes people come across as arrogant and condescending because they know canned answers but fail to really examine the logical questions those answers lead to.

I apologize if I am coming across that way. I am, as my position states, a traditional pre-tribber seeking answers to very difficult questions.

I've learned from a long time in ministry and the church that people build theological frame work off of assumptions about particular passages. I'm passionate about making it all make sense, at least as much as possible.

I'll work on my tone, but to be fair, if I get an answer that doesn't make sense, and I have good reason to think so, I'll share that.

I would say that the tone is coming form both sides of the isle, in some cases.

I am not providing canned answers and these questions don't seem difficult to me :idunno

[acceptedintheBeloved]

J Vernon McGee went over this again today (well, he didn't actually do it, the show did :lol2) - what timing! Went over the conveniently given and logical division for the book of Revelation - that which was, which is, and is to come. Revelation 4 and on is that which is to come.

Also, the raptured church is seated around the throne of God while the seals are opened.

Not to mention the fact that they have just "cast their crowns before the throne."


Now what I am about to say is just a guess (and difficult for me to explain, and merely an attempt), but with regard to the idea that Jesus is seen as a Lamb "as it had been slain " (Rev. 5:6), here in this scene; and later the multitude are seen with Palm branches in their hands, etc (Rev. 7:9), seems to me to be indicating, not merely the whole grand scheme of things but, the timing of when the events will actually occur during the trib.

In other words, the very beginning point of the trib (here in Rev. 5 and 6[?]) would occur/begin during the Jewish feast of Passover/Firstfruits (on the earth), and the mid-point (Rev. 7 and other parts) would occur during Tabernacles (when the waving of Palm branches takes place; notice the "Palm branches" in the text.) It would end sometime around the spring (after the full 7 years), when kings were crowned.

This would be part of why the scenes in the heavenly throne room are presented in the order that they are... not because they are meant to be showing/occuring when they actually took place in the past (by that, I mean, it is not trying to say that this throne room scene in heaven [Rev. 4-6] started at the time of Jesus' resurrection, describing all that has occurred since then [the seals and such, as was explained by RT and Coop]). They are meant to be showing what will be occuring (including the timing of them) [B]during the trib, and this will (IMO) greatly aid the Jewish people of that future time period to "see the Reality"... of Jesus Christ... clearly.

Am I making any sense? :lol2

ETA: The above is just an example of the idea I'm trying to convey, it may or may not play out precisely that way (in the details), but is simply an attempt at "drawing a picture" of what I mean.

[Jacinth]

Well, so what was the significance of Jesus 'standing' when Stephen looked up to heaven?

[Steve53]

Well, so what was the significance of Jesus 'standing' when Stephen looked up to heaven?

He was rising to greet Stephen.

Back to our regularly scheduled thread now.......

[acceptedintheBeloved]

More thoughts... by William Kelly:


Revelation 7

After this, so far is the great day of His wrath from being come, that we find in the parenthesis of Rev. 7 God accomplishing mighty works of saving mercy. The first is the sealing of 144,000 out of the tribes of Israel by an angel that comes from the sun‑rising. Next there is vouchsafed to the prophet the sight of a crowd of Gentiles that none could number, "out of every nation, and tribes, and peoples, and Tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and they cry with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God that sitteth on the throne, and to the Lamb."

Here it is not simply "salvation," but "salvation to God," in the quality of sitting upon the throne (we have seen in this book, His judicial throne). In other words, the ascription could not have been made before Rev. 4. Its tenor supposes a vast change to have taken place. It is not the fruit of a testimony during all or many ages. All this is merely men's imagination, without the smallest foundation in scripture. So far from its being a picture of the redeemed of all times, it is expressly said to be a countless throng out of Gentiles contrasted with Israel, and this in relation to God governing judicially. It is not universal therefore. These Gentiles stand in manifest contrast with the sealed out of Israel. One of the elders talked about them, and explained to the prophet, who evidently without this would have been at fault. If the elders mean the glorified saints, these Gentiles are not. Most assuredly they cannot be all saints, because the hundred and forty‑four thousand of Israel we have seen expressly distinguished from them. Who are they and what? They are a multitude of Gentiles to be preserved by gracious power in these last days. They are not said to be glorified; nor is there reason to doubt that they are still in their natural bodies. When they are said to be before the throne, it proves nothing inconsistent with this; because the woman, for instance, in Rev. 12, is also described as seen in heaven; but, you must remember, this is only where the prophet saw them in the vision. We are not necessarily to gather that they were to be in heaven; John saw them there, but whether it might mean that they were, or were not to be, in heaven, is another question. This depends on other considerations that have to be taken into account, and it is for want of due waiting on God, and of adequately weighing the surrounding circumstances, that such serious mistakes are made in these matters.

In this case it is perfectly plain to my mind that they are not heavenly as such. There are weighty objections. First of all, we find them definitely contra‑distinguished from Israel, who clearly are on earth, and thus naturally this company would be on earth too,-the one Jewish, and the other Gentile. Next they come out of the great tribulation. Far from its being a general body in respect to all time, this proves that it is a very peculiar though countless group, - that it is only persons who can be preserved and blessed of God during the epoch of the great tribulation.

In the millennial time there will be a great ingathering of the Gentiles; but these are not millennial saints. They are saints from among the Gentiles, who will be called to the knowledge of God by the preaching of the "everlasting gospel," or the "gospel of the kingdom," of which we hear both in the gospels and in the Revelation. We all know that the Lord Himself tells the disciples that this "gospel of the kingdom" shall be "preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations" (or all the Gentiles); "and then shall the end come." Now this is just the very time spoken of here. It is clearly not a general summary of what is going on now, but a description of what is yet to be, specially just before the end when the great tribulation bursts out. And there is the fruit of divine grace even then in this vast crowd from the Gentiles, the details of whose description fall in with and confirm what has been remarked already.


(more at link) http://www.biblecentre.org/commentaries/wk_70_lect_int_revelation.htm#Revelation 7