A question about the martyrs of Revelation 6

[grapplewithGod]

Hey Everyone,

I asked a previous question and the answers helped affirmed what I was reading. I've come across another question I'm hoping I can get some help with.

1. I'm starting with the assumption that Rev 6 and Matthew 24 are both describing the Tribulation. The passages seem to parallel and I don't think anyone refutes this.

The Martyrs of Revelation 6

Jesus clearly spoke about the increased persecution of Christians in Matthew 24...As I read Revelation 6 I see that as the parallel passage of this intense persecution...PROBLEM

It isn't until Revelation 7 that there is an interlude, the 144,000 are sealed, and people from every tribe and nation are saved. QUESTION...

Who is being martyred in Revelation 6:9-11 and Matthew 24:9 if Christians have been raptured and the 144,000 come after the 5th seal?

Thanks.

[Hootmon]

Who is being martyred in Revelation 6:9-11
People who came to faith during the Trib who refused to take the MotB.


In Matthew 24, Jesus is answering three questions:


As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
(Mat 24:3)

The verse you asked about, Matthew 24:9 , is in the 'when will these things happen' part.


And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
(Mat 24:4-13)

You also need to keep in mind that the focus here (in the Gospels, and Matthew in particular) is still on the Jewish people, as are the events in the Trib.

[grapplewithGod]

People who came to faith during the Trib who refused to take the MotB.


In Matthew 24, Jesus is answering three questions:


As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
(Mat 24:3)

The verse you asked about, Matthew 24:9 , is in the 'when will these things happen' part.


And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
(Mat 24:4-13)

You also need to keep in mind that the focus here (in the Gospels, and Matthew in particular) is still on the Jewish people, as are the events in the Trib.

It still creates problems.

Jesus said, "Many will fall away" who's falling away if there are only people to come to Christ? (I'm working on the assumption that Rev 6 and Matthew 24 are the same events)

Second, Revelation 6 clearly states that people get saved during Chapter 7 in the interlude.

Before that there are people being martyred in 6:9-11.

I realize the assumption is "a Jewish audience" and so on. It just doesn't wash with the chronology.

If every believer is raptured...it doesn't seem likely that there are a lot of people to be martyred in 6:9-11. Realisicly, if during the interlude 144,000 are saved and then a large group of people from every tongue tribe and nation...how many peope could possibly get saved before this event?

It just seems strange that there is a seal that leads to mass martyrdom of Christians between the rapture and the interlude.

I'm kind of hoping for an answer like, Revelation six isn't in chronological order or something to that effect.

[carol1948]

It seems to me that there will be people who come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ because they witnessed the Rapture and are left behind. These people will (at least in the U.S./West) be outspoken about what has occurred and their new-found faith. They will be easy targets for the enemy, and this will be before or occurring at the same time as the 144,000 are sealed and begin to witness. At least that's my thought.

[grapplewithGod]

It seems to me that there will be people who come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ because they witnessed the Rapture and are left behind. These people will (at least in the U.S./West) be outspoken about what has occurred and their new-found faith. They will be easy targets for the enemy, and this will be before or occurring at the same time as the 144,000 are sealed and begin to witness. At least that's my thought.

I would agree with that...it just causes me to struggle to think about the number of those people...particularly since there is a distinct point when many come to Christ in the tribulation.

How many come to Christ before this great revival? How many can it actually be? Just doesn't make sense.

[resurrection torchlight]

Who is being martyred in Revelation 6:9-11 and Matthew 24:9 if Christians have been raptured and the 144,000 come after the 5th seal?

First of all they aren't being martyred, they already were martyred, they are "souls" speaking.

Secondly at least for myself, and virtually no one agrees with me on this here at RR, and for the record I am a proponent of a pre-trib rapture. I just see the trib starting after the 7th seal is removed. I believe that church is raptured after the fifth seal is removed and with the opening of the sixth seal. The seventh seal opening is what IMO begins the 70th week. Therefore these 5th seal martyrs are all those who have been martyred throughout history they help make up the dead in Christ, this would include the disciples whom Jesus addressed in Matthew 24:9. When John sees them receive their white robes- he is witnessing their resurrection and them receiving their regenerated bodies. Later all those multitudes "appear" before the throne waving palm branches dressed in white- they are the sons of the resurrection, both those who were the dead which includes the martyrs in Christ and those who were caught up to join them in the air- the raptured saints. The redeemed of Christ's household.

That is my view, however you are free to disagree as does just about everyone else, no hard feelings on my end.

God bless you
RT

[Hootmon]

(I'm working on the assumption that Rev 6 and Matthew 24 are the same events)I believe that is causing the 'problem'.

[Hootmon]

...there is a distinct point when many come to Christ in the tribulation.What makes you think that?

[grapplewithGod]

What makes you think that?

Revelation 7 "after this I saw..." then an interlude between the 6th and 7th seal where the 144,000 are saved and people form every tribe tongue and nation.

I should have said theres a distinct point when the salvation of the 144,000 begins and it's after the great martyrdom of the 5th seal.

As to my assumption being wrong on Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 John Walvoord among others hold to this belief.

[Hootmon]

Revelation 7 "after this I saw..." John saw a lot of things.

Do you consider the entire book of Revelation to be in chronological order?



...I should have said theres a distinct point when the salvation of the 144,000 begins and it's after the great martyrdom of the 5th seal.Im not sure you can just substitue 'salvation' for 'sealing' in that context.



As to my assumption being wrong on Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 John Walvoord among others hold to this belief.So?