September 13th, 2008, 07:57 PM
I googled this question and found something by Dr. David Reagan, someone I know many on this board have much respect for.
September 13th, 2008, 08:01 PM
Love and hugs to all of you from me too.
I've been following the thread faithfully but usually too tired to log in and post! May the Lord's love, mercy, and comfort continue to sustain us all.
September 13th, 2008, 08:11 PM
Makes you want to run out and adopt a bunch of children doesn't it?
I want so bad to be able to say that God will take the children of saved parents and lost parents alike. If I say that, I present myself with another question. Why didn't the Lord give us scripture stating that the children of previous judgments were taken in a similar fashion as the rapture. In other words during the flood if children were raptured why weren't they mentioned any where else in scripture?
Thanks for the replies. I guess I'm just going to have to wait and see.
September 13th, 2008, 08:32 PM
I'm not looking for sarcasm. Case is not closed. Do we just assume that based on our opinions that we are right and that others must be treated as ignorant? The point of a forum is to get answers right? Well in spite of the smug attitude I still have a question to get answered.
Where is the scripture that says an unbeliever's child will be raptured? Romans 7:9, Matthew 18:10, and Genesis 18:25, does not answer it. The scripture implies special mercies of God for little children under the age of accountability concerning death. I whole heartedly agree.
The articles you asked me to read imply that during those judgments children went to Paradise. Scripture does not declare such a statement. I believe children died in both of those judgments. As I said before I believe that those children who died in the judgments went to heaven. What I'm getting at is this. If in previous judgments the children were not spared the wrath of God, what makes the rapture so different? What scripture states that children of the unsaved will go up in the rapture?
Again I ask what does a parent's salvation have to do with their children's spiritual status? Saved parents children do not always end up getting saved and go to heaven so why would only these children get raptured? No ones answers or reasonings answered my "What happens when" questions.
It only makes sense that the children were not spared the judgments of God because there would have been no one to take care of them. In a rapture scenario however, children are taken to heaven where they will be cared for better than ever.
September 13th, 2008, 08:39 PM
That makes perfect sense to me, Rapturetime.
September 13th, 2008, 08:43 PM
I believe if a three year old child died that he would go to heaven. We are not talking about death. We are talking about the rapture
the rapture is a type of death
a translation from mortal to immortal
September 13th, 2008, 10:10 PM
We don't know, because it isn't clear in the bible, for a reason.
But I love God anywayz, even though I don't understand.
There must be a reason why we are not to know.
God is sovereign, He will do according to His will not mine.
But I pray for all children to be raptured, maybe I can move Him if He wishes, we should all pray for the children, regardless of what we 'think' it will be or want it to be.
September 13th, 2008, 11:06 PM
Buzz, Actually wouldn't the rapture would be a type of life not death. See I Corinthians 15:51-56. We are putting on a new immortal body. Are you saying that one who has died already must die again physically if the dead in Christ rise first? Spiritually we've already been quickened right? So, physically we are getting new bodies. Wouldn't new relate to life?
Rapturetime, I believe that scripture implies special application to children of saved people. I Corinthians 7:14, and Deuteronomy 1:39. Thats were I get my understanding. Please correct me if I'm wrong. (I didn't see your earlier post...sorry) I'm also contrasting this with scripture like Deut. 7:2 where Israel was told to utterly destroy.
Why would there be special treatment of children of the unsaved at the rapture but not at the other judgments? And if there is going to be a special application to these children in the rapture wouldn't it seem logical that scripture would state something about it?
I don't want to specifically say that these children will not be raptured. Im afraid they won't be. Im not here to offend anyone. I just want help finding scripture proving they will be taken if there is any. Thanks for helping all of you.
Maybe my thinking is all wrong....the answer may lie in the importance of children to the Lord. If the children were important in the flood, sodom and gomorrah, and wars where God told israel to utterly destroy, then why did he allow those children to die, but not at the rapture? I guess i need to quit thinking about it. Its easy to get confused about this topic.
September 13th, 2008, 11:35 PM
Where is the scripture that says an unbeliever's child will be raptured?
If in previous judgments the children were not spared the wrath of God, what makes the rapture so different?
1. Where's the scripture that says an unbeliever's child WON'T be raptured? Just because it's not stated that they will be doesn't mean they won't be. Make sense?
2. What makes the Rapture so different?
Here's why: If the children were not Raptured then a child under the age of accountability coming into the Tribulation could accept the Delusion, The Lie which God sends because of unbelief, and when they reached the age of accountability might take the Mark of the Beast, 666. How would that be fair? "The Lie" is intended for those who refuse to believe, not innocent children (Romans 7:9 - Paul in in effect saying that children have eternal life until they reach the age of accountability). God won't allow that, it's not just or in His character. So if children are taken in the Rapture, any child born after the Rapture and in the Tribulation (that only last 7 years), could never be held accountable for receiving the Mark of the Beast. (such as if they were forced by the parents.) They could never reach the age of accountability in 7 years (minus 9 months).
3. God is in full control and however it goes down will be fair and just. You can count on that. Your counting on Him for your Salvation. Why not trust Him with your children?
4. Sorry m281920 if I came off smug sounding. Must be the protective parent in me. :) :hat
September 14th, 2008, 06:20 AM
Much of this has already been presented. This is from a study I put together a while back defending the pre-Trib rapture:
Partial rapture argument #3: Not all children under the age of accountability will go in the rapture since they have not confessed of the sinful nature they were born with.
Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Romans 3:10 As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not one...
1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
1 Corinthians 7:14 is not talking about salvation here. To be sanctified can mean to become conducive to spiritual blessing. In other words, being around a believer will make a person more susceptible to becoming a believer themselves.
Scripture is pretty clear that the children of believers that are under the age of accountability will go to heaven if they die. David knew without a doubt that he would join his dead child in heaven some day.
2 Samuel 12:19-23 When David saw that his servants were whispering, David perceived that the child was dead. Therefore David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” And they said, “He is dead.” So David arose from the ground, washed and anointed himself, and changed his clothes; and he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house; and when he requested, they set food before him, and he ate. Then his servants said to him, “What is this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” And he said, “While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who can tell whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.”
But what about children of unbelievers? The children were not spared in the judgment of the flood or other judgments of God in the OT, so why would they go in the rapture? Before we take a look whether all children will be raptured, we first need to determine that children are not held accountable for their sin, and they will go to heaven if they die before reaching that age of accountability. Deuteronomy 1 shows us that there is an age of accountability, where children have no knowledge of good and evil:
Deuteronomy 1:35-39 ‘Surely not one of these men of this evil generation shall see that good land of which I swore to give to your fathers, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh…. Joshua the son of Nun, who stands before you, he shall go in there. Encourage him, for he shall cause Israel to inherit it. ‘Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.
We see in 2 Peter 2:9 that God doesn't judge the righteous with the unrighteous and we see in Romans 7 where Paul tells us that only those that know or grasp an understanding of the Law are considered unrighteous because they become responsible to it, but then break it anyway. Paul also points out that he “was alive once” before he knew the Law. This also gives evidence that those that cannot comprehend the Law are not dead in sin. Obviously children under the age of accountability are in that category.
2 Peter 2:9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment
Romans 7:7-12 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Scripture also indicates that everybody is initially included in the Lamb's book of life. This shows that there is some point in time in a person's life that they may be blotted out for unbelief. Obviously, this happens after the person reaches the age of accountability and reason. Scripture is clear that everyone included in the Lamb's book of life will be a part of the new heaven and earth.
Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Revelation 21:27 But there shall by no means enter it (the New Jerusalem) anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
Jesus also shows us that we have to become like children to enter the kingdom. He tells us not to forbid the children from coming to Him; meaning we shouldn’t do anything that would prevent them from accepting Him when they reach the age of accountability. So why then would Jesus forbid any child below the age of accountability from entering into heaven?
Matthew 18:1-5 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 19:13-15 Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” And He laid His hands on them and departed from there.
The evidence in scripture is strong that children under the age of accountability will go to heaven at death. Therefore, in the OT judgments, the death of the children can actually be looked at in a positive light, in that every single one went to be with the Lord, instead of growing up with their unbelieving and evil parents and becoming lost eternally. So what about children of unbelievers going in the rapture? Let's look at a few other scriptures that might shed some light on the answer.
It appears that being kept from the Wrath of God is a salvation issue. Since we have determined that children under the age of accountability currently have salvation, then in this age of grace, all these children would then be kept from the Wrath of God along with the church.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ
That said, we must recognize that there will be children born in the Tribulation.
Matthew 24:15-19 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
This passage actually gives evidence that all children will be taken at the rapture. This is because the average weaning age in the world is three years old and even older in some third world countries. It is safe to say the whole world will be in worse shape than even third world countries are today. Jesus only mentions pregnant and nursing mothers in Matthew 24, so He may be hinting that there are only small children to be taken care of during the worst time in human history. Assuming the rapture happens within a few years of the beginning of Daniel's 70th week, most children at the time of the "abomination of desolation" would be younger than three to five:
Also, we have the possible parallel passage to the throne room in heaven in Revelation, where the assembly is the church (elders, priests, bride), which also includes children and babies.
Joel 2:16-17 Gather the people, Sanctify the congregation, Assemble the elders, Gather the children and nursing babes; Let the bridegroom go out from his chamber, And the bride from her dressing room. Let the priests, who minister to the LORD, Weep between the porch and the altar; Let them say, “Spare Your people, O LORD, And do not give Your heritage to reproach, That the nations should rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples, ‘ Where is their God?’”
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.0 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.