What we do for the least of these...

[frodo82801]

Matthew 25: 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Is this primarily a call to the individual?

The more I study these things, the more important I believe it is to see it as a call to the individual. I'm concluding that it's a sin to just pay taxes and let the govt take care of problems because that's a cop out.

I don't want to make this political, but it does affect how I see the methods for dealing with society's problems. I see results when people get out there and get involved because there are relationships that turn lives around. I see charities make the most of the dollars they get because they are accountable to the donors.

What do you think?

[LaMontre]

Is this primarily a call to the individual?

The more I study these things, the more important I believe it is to see it as a call to the individual. I'm concluding that it's a sin to just pay taxes and let the govt take care of problems because that's a cop out.

I don't want to make this political, but it does affect how I see the methods for dealing with society's problems. I see results when people get out there and get involved because there are relationships that turn lives around. I see charities make the most of the dollars they get because they are accountable to the donors.

What do you think?

Thats an interesting take on this passage, because the timing of this event is just after the second coming of Christ, when he judges the nations that have come against Jerusalem at the battle of Armaggedon. And so the issue at hand is how these two groups treated the third party, apparently standing by (see vs's 40 and 45 i.e. "the least of these"), which is the elect.

So in reality, these actions would involve the giving of assistance (or the lack of giving assistance) to the elect during the tribulation period. And those who are greeted into the kingdom are them that enter the tribulation period in their mortal bodies, and will repopulate the earth and be ruled over by Jesus from Israel for 1000 years.

[frodo82801]

It's true that the context is during the trib, but is it also true that he gave a similar message in general? Help the least of these?

[LaMontre]

It's true that the context is during the trib, but is it also true that he gave a similar message in general? Help the least of these?

Can you be a little less vague? I am not sure what your suggesting and I would rather not guess wrong. :)

[MsSophie]

I've heard one commentary that says this is what others did for the Jews during the tribulation period. Has anyone else heard that interpretation.

[Mentat]

The sheep (saved) in relationship to God, in obedience to His will, produced the fruit of good works by shining "light" into the world, and caring for our neighbors, as if they are Christ.
The goats (unsaved) have no relationship, and only do what satisfies themselves. They have no fruit, as they do not love their neighbors.

Fruit is the evidence of salvation, not the cause of it.

1 John 1:5-10

[LaMontre]

The sheep (saved) in relationship to God, in obedience to His will, produced the fruit of good works by shining "light" into the world, and caring for our neighbors, as if they are Christ.
The goats (unsaved) have no relationship, and only do what satisfies themselves. They have no fruit, as they do not love their neighbors.

Fruit is the evidence of salvation, not the cause of it.

1 John 1:5-10

Yeah, except that in this case, these sheep are now standing before Jesus being judged, and are not necessarily filled with the Spirit, as believers within the Church are. And they are not spared (you will note) because they walked by faith, as anyone else would be in the household of God, but because of certain specifically stated works.

No, these are spared simply because they were not contributing to the anti-christ system in the trbulation. They helped the elect, instead of helping to destroy them. If these were sheep as you are categorizing them, then they were saved by works apart from faith, and there is no precedent for that anywhere else in the bible. They are not "saved" as we currently would think of it, but are "saved" to enter the millenial kingdom in their mortal bodies, and repopulate the earth.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

[LaMontre]

These nations will also (eventually) become disobedient in the millenial kingdom.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

[Mentat]

Yeah, except that in this case, these sheep are now standing before Jesus being judged, and are not necessarily filled with the Spirit, as believers within the Church are. And they are not spared (you will note) because they walked by faith, as anyone else would be in the household of God, but because of certain specifically stated works.

No, these are spared simply because they were not contributing to the anti-christ system in the trbulation. They helped the elect, instead of helping to destroy them. If these were sheep as you are categorizing them, then they were saved by works apart from faith, and there is no precedent for that anywhere else in the bible. They are not "saved" as we currently would think of it, but are "saved" to enter the millenial kingdom in their mortal bodies, and repopulate the earth.

Where did you get that interpretation? :scratch

The sheep on the right have their names written in the book of life, and those on the left do not. What Matt 25 brings out is the correlation between one's salvation status and one's behavior. Is this teaching salvation by works? Indeed we might come to that conclusion if we hadn't read the rest of the Bible. In reality what happens is that those who have been born of God naturally produce the love of God as the fruit of their salvation. This is not performance based salvation, but salvation based performance. One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. It is as a result of the gift, already received.

[LaMontre]

Where did you get that interpretation? :scratch

The sheep on the right have their names written in the book of life, and those on the left do not.

This is not the great white throne judgement. That judgment doesn't occur until the end of the millenium (1000 years after this event).

Do you have a scripture to support your assertion that these "sheep" have their names written in the book of life?

What Matt 25 brings out is the correlation between one's salvation status and one's behavior.

Actually, even them that aren't saved can do what Jesus says these will do.

He says to them specifically:
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Please note that "these my brethren" are separate from this group on his right hand (and certainly from the group on his left). It is as if he is talking to this group on his right, and pointing to another group standing by for whom they had done these good works. This group standing by are the now resurrected and raptured saints who's names certainly are written in the lambs book of life.

Also note the reason for them inheriting the kingdom. It is not because they had believed on Christ, nor because of how they had used their talents as in the previous parable. It is simply because of what they had done specifically for the elect.

However, there is an interesting twist here. After he judges the goats, and they ask why. He replies:

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

And so he is now including the group on his right (who are not his brethren) as being the ones for whom the ones on his left did nothing. I find that interesting.

It very well could be that these have their names written in the book of life. However, as I say, that judgement won't occur for another 1000 years from this point in time. So we cannot really know until then.

Even should they have their names written in the book of life, it is not that which brings about good works. It is by grace and being filled with the Spirit (as in being given a gift, and utilizing it well, as in the parable of the talents), and there is no indication that these utilized any gift to do what they did. It is almost as if Jesus gives them the kingdom as a debt or repayment. That may be taking things a bit too far, but you get the idea.

Is this teaching salvation by works? Indeed we might come to that conclusion if we hadn't read the rest of the Bible. In reality what happens is that those who have been born of God naturally produce the love of God as the fruit of their salvation.

I would agree with that, except for the fact that this particular parable is about the time of the beginning of the millenium. If you will note:

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

So this is after the rapture. Matthew 24 - 25 is actually a sequence of events happening, I believe, just before, during, and after the tribulation.

Matthew 25 specifically is;
vs's 1-13 The Rapture
vs's 14-30 The judgement seat of Christ
vs's 31-46 The judgement of the nations

This is not performance based salvation, but salvation based performance.

So you dont believe an unbeliever can help others? That's all these are rewarded for doing. Not for their faith, or anything like the parable of the talents.

And what is most telling is that they had no idea they had ever even done it. People doing good specifically for Jesus would have known. But these simply thought they were helping their fellow man.

One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. It is as a result of the gift, already received.

I don't disagree with this, but this parable cannot be utilized to support that doctrine. It was not given for that purpose. You really should connect Matthew 25 with the questions the diescples asked all the way back at the beginning of chapter 24:

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?