Compare these statments of faith - which one is emergent?

[Pleye]

I'm still new with this emergent stuff but I need some help.

These are two statements of faith as found from church websites (coming from the parent site of course).

One is for a church my family attends. One is for a church a friend attends.

Does one of these appear emergent from the statements?

Church #1
------------
8) The baptism of the Holy Spirit as an experience subsequent to salvation, with the scriptural evidence, namely, speaking in tongues.

12) The eternal life of the believer and the eternal punishment of the unbeliever.

16) The personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ for His Church.

(#16 is all they say about end times)


Church #2
------------
2. ... He will come again to establish His kingdom of righteousness and peace.

3 The Holy Spirit is a divine Person, sent to indwell, guide, teach and empower the believer, and to convince the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgment.

7 .... This is accomplished through being filled with the Holy Spirit which is both a distinct event and progressive experience in the life of the believer.

10 There shall be a bodily resurrection of the just and of the unjust; for the former, a resurrection unto life; for the latter, a resurrection unto judgment.

11 The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is imminent and will be personal and visible. As the believer’s blessed hope, this vital truth is an incentive for holy living and sacrificial service toward the completion of Christ's commission.

Any thoughts on these two churches are welcomed, but I'm mainly curious, are you able to predict one of these being emergent from their statements?

[matheteou]

I'm still new with this emergent stuff but I need some help.

These are two statements of faith as found from church websites (coming from the parent site of course).

One is for a church my family attends. One is for a church a friend attends.

Does one of these appear emergent from the statements?

Church #1
------------
8) The baptism of the Holy Spirit as an experience subsequent to salvation, with the scriptural evidence, namely, speaking in tongues.

12) The eternal life of the believer and the eternal punishment of the unbeliever.

16) The personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ for His Church.

(#16 is all they say about end times)


Church #2
------------
2. ... He will come again to establish His kingdom of righteousness and peace.

3 The Holy Spirit is a divine Person, sent to indwell, guide, teach and empower the believer, and to convince the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgment.

7 .... This is accomplished through being filled with the Holy Spirit which is both a distinct event and progressive experience in the life of the believer.

10 There shall be a bodily resurrection of the just and of the unjust; for the former, a resurrection unto life; for the latter, a resurrection unto judgment.

11 The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is imminent and will be personal and visible. As the believer’s blessed hope, this vital truth is an incentive for holy living and sacrificial service toward the completion of Christ's commission.

Any thoughts on these two churches are welcomed, but I'm mainly curious, are you able to predict one of these being emergent from their statements?Don't care which one is emergent as the speaking in tongues as proof of salvation is biblically incorrect. I would more likely attend and investigate more thoroughly church #2.

[JoelH]

I can't say for certain the emergent church is revealed in these two statements either. I think both of them do have some Charismatic influences - "indwelled with the Holy Spirit as a distinct event" which is not what the Bible teaches. It is Arminian definitely, which I understand the Emergent Church operates. (Although I have known Calvinist-by-name Emergent churches, they are often in the mainline PCUSA).

The second church contains this statement - "sacrificial service toward the completion of Christ's commission.". If they then talks about being "missional", then you may need to enquire further to see if they are involved in social gospel type of activities. A yes will reveal they are very near the Emergent church.

[Buzzardhut]

8) The baptism of the Holy Spirit as an experience subsequent to salvation, with the scriptural evidence, namely, speaking in tongues.
The Holy Spirit baptizes us at Salvation.

16) The personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ for His Church.
Jesus personally returns to rapture His church.
Jesus' Second Coming is with His church and saves Israel and Earth.

11 The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is imminent and will be personal and visible. As the believer’s blessed hope, this vital truth is an incentive for holy living and sacrificial service toward the completion of Christ's commission.
The Rapture is imminent.
The Second Coming is 7+ years later from Rapture.

Any thoughts on these two churches are welcomed, but I'm mainly curious, are you able to predict one of these being emergent from their statements?
No Emergent stuff in there.

[Buzzardhut]

Here is one Emergent checklist: (http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=15727&highlight=emergent)

1) Sound biblical doctrine is dangerous and divisive, and the experiential (i.e.,mystical) is given a greater role than doctrine.

2) Bible prophecy is no longer taught and is considered a waste of time

3) Israel becomes less and less important and has no biblical significance
Eventually the promises for Israel are applied to the church and not Israel (Replacement Theology).

4) Bible study is replaced by studying someone’s book and his methods
Church health is evaluated on the quantity of people who attend.

5) The truth of God’s Word becomes less and less important
God’s Word, especially concepts like hell, sin and repentance, is eventually downplayed so the unbeliever is not offended.

6) Scripture is no longer the ultimate authority as the basis for the Christian faith.

7) The centrality of the gospel of Jesus Christ is being replaced by humanistic methods promoting church growth and a social gospel.

8) More and more emphasis is being placed on building the kingdom of God now and less and less on the warnings of Scripture about the imminent return of Jesus Christ and a coming judgment in the future.

9) The teaching that Jesus Christ will rule and reign in a literal millennial period is considered unbiblical and heretical.

10) The teaching that the church has taken the place of Israel and Israel has no prophetic significance is often embraced.

11) The teaching that the Book of Revelation does not refer to the future, but instead has been already fulfilled in the past

12) An experiential mystical form of Christianity begins to be promoted as a method to reach the postmodern generation.

13) Ideas are promoted teaching that Christianity needs to be reinvented in order to provide meaning for this generation.

14) The pastor may implement an idea called “ancient-future” or “vintage Christianity” claiming that in order to take the church forward, we need to go back in church history and find out what experiences were effective to get people to embrace Christianity.

15) While the authority of the Word of God is undermined, images and sensual experiences are promoted as the key to experiencing and knowing God.
These experiences include icons, candles, incense, liturgy, labyrinths, prayer stations, contemplative prayer, experiencing the sacraments, particularly the sacrament of the Eucharist.

15) There seems to be a strong emphasis on ecumenism indicating that a bridge is being established that leads in the direction of unity with the Roman Catholic Church. Some evangelical Protestant leaders are saying that the Reformation went too far. They are reexamining the claims of the “church fathers” saying that communion is more than a symbol and that Jesus actually becomes present in the wafer at communion.

16) There will be a growing trend towards an ecumenical unity for the cause of world peace claiming the validity of other religions and that there are many ways to God.

17) Members of churches who question or resist the new changes that the pastor is implementing are reprimanded and usually asked to leave.

http://www.understandthetimes.org/ec/exposingec.shtml

[Pleye]

The second church contains this statement - "sacrificial service toward the completion of Christ's commission.". If they then talks about being "missional", then you may need to enquire further to see if they are involved in social gospel type of activities. A yes will reveal they are very near the Emergent church.

I'm going to answer Buzzardhuts evaluation in more detail later but I have to get back to work first :)

First, church #2 belongs to The Christian and Missionary Alliance.

I wanted to tell you Joel, that I googled the website of the parent organization for church 2 and found this:

Missional churches believe that the purpose of the church is to go into the world and preach the gospel (evangelize), calling people into the community of the church and thereby growing large the mustard tree which is the kingdom of God until the birds of the air, the nations, can roost in it. Missional churches certainly believe that God works in the sacraments, gives freedom through truth and empowers the church through sound government. But, foundationally, they believe that the heartbeat, the cause of the church, is the preaching of the gospel.

...

Who is included in this category is open to discussion, but personally I would nominate the Pentecostals, the new large outreach churches (Willow Creek, Saddleback and others), and, as you might have guessed by now, The Christian and Missionary Alliance.



So right away they lump themselves in with Willow Creek and Saddleback being missional. Not sure on their opinion of emergent though. I found that above quote at http://cmalliance.ca/pastorallettersnewc543.php?articleID=8&IACategoryID=1 if anyone wants to look further.

But I'm not sure what you were saying about social gospel? Can you help with that?

[Sing4Him]

calling people into the community of the church and thereby growing large the mustard tree which is the kingdom of God until the birds of the air, the nations, can roost in it

IMO--Absolutely ridiculous!

Where is the mention of the sinner in need of Jesus' atonement (shed blood)??

Seems Kingdom Now theology.

The social gospel is one that promotes "experience" and "numbers".
It is one "evangelizes" using humanistic methodologies, neglecting the "sword of the spirit", the Bible. "seeker sensitive movement" etc.

If you don't have the salvation message .. forget the church. It is a human "instituation".
I would venture to say that Saddleback and others are nothing more than "institutions"

who "builds the house"?

Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it...Psalm 127:1

:nod

[HSmomto4]

I'm a little confused here. I'm reading a lot here that makes it sound like evangelism is wrong. Is it believed that we are NOT supposed to go out and spread the gospel?

[Sing4Him]

HS-- of course we are to witness (spread the gospel) of Jesus Christ who died on the cross for sinners.

It is the promotion of man's methodologies in bringing people in "numbers" into churches that is spoken of with neglect of the cross.

Please see if you can get Roger Oakland's new book, Faith Undone.


Here are problems:

.Present an unbalanced message.

• Don’t mention repentance until they’re repeating a “sinner’s prayer.”

• Above all else, be dignified.

• Skim over the gospel and push the prayer.

• Preach Jesus as a life enhancer not a life rescuer.

• Try to please the people instead of convert them.

• Compromise the message to speed up the process.

• Give them the impression that God is so good He won’t send anyone to hell.

• Speak to sinners as though they were saints.

• Don’t mention sin or man’s guilt.

• Don’t look to the Bible for the substance of your altar call.

• Tell the lost not to feel bad about their sins.

• Whatever you do, never mention Judgment Day.

• Tell them Jesus is the only way to heaven but don’t explain why.

• Confuse the call.

• Only give them half the story.

• Present the truth as though it isn’t.

• Preach forgiveness without repentance.

• Be unbiblical.

• Let them think next Sunday is the day of salvation.

• Never warn of hell.

• Only do altar calls inside the church.

• Use churchy terms.

• Give false assurance of salvation to unsaved Christians. Never mention the wrath of God.

• Study how the apostles preached and witnessed and do the opposite.

• Put more emphasis on the “sinner’s prayer” then on repentance and faith.

• Let Christians think you’re the only one who can do it right.

• Don’t let the lost know they are.

• Rely upon psychological techniques to manipulate people into responding to the altar call.

• Make sure you’re the main attraction.

• Don’t focus upon Jesus.

[Sing4Him]

Here is a GREAT article to read regarding Seeker Sensitive:

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?p=212093#post212093