I go to to Mars Hill Church (in Seattle). What about this emerging/ent stuff?

[Christy]

You obviously didn't read my post prior to my last one here.

2 Timothy 3:6:
holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; avoid such men as these.

The reason why I don't buy into Mark Driscoll's so-called departure from the Emergent is because:

a) Driscoll’s Church is advertising their Mar's Hill Cinco de Service:

We go out! We stay in! We celebrate! Go OUT into our city with Mars Hill Mercy Ministry, OR stay IN at Ballard for a complete Spring Cleaning. Whichever you choose, meet back at the Ballard building at 5:30pm to CELEBRATE with your brothers & sisters fiesta-style.

Huh? Somehow all of that make my head spin, since it doesn't make any sense.

And what does this fiesta include? Beer.

Viva La Fiesta! This party is going to be be fabulous! From the team that brought you the Red Hot Bash, this over-the-top party is not to be missed. Decor! Taquitos! Chimichangas! Cervesas! Mariachis! and Mas!

The word highlighted in red is BEER.

This is the same Mars Hill Church which featured a New Years’ Red Hot Bash:

Come bust a move on the enormous dance floor when the Ballard Campas transforms into a posh club to celebrate the New Year. A smoking band, tasty desserts, a champagne toast at midnight – Mars Hill has never seen a party like this.

I guess not, eh? Nor have I. Yes indeed, quite the celebration glorifying the Lord, isn’t it? But hang on, there's more:

We’ll be transforming our auditorium into a Red Hot Spot, bringing in an enormous dance floor, refreshments, dessert, champagne, photos in an awesome backdrop designed for the event and all the noise-making party favors you could want... This is a swanky event on a day to celebrate. Bonus points for anything RED hot!

Somehow I doubt the reference to “red hot” above was to a discussion of the subject of Hell. Rather it is a demeaning reference to what is seen as “sexually attractive".

Is it appropriate conduct for a “non-Emergent” Pastor like Mark Driscoll to turn part of his church into a seedy nightclub, liquor-up his flock and then encourage them to lust???????

I$ thi$ a de$perate attempt to appear “cool” to the young by embracing the likes of this “cussing pastor”??????

Now what must GOD think of all of this.

[Josh]

Notice the caps-lock on RED in "RED hot". Here are some photos from the sexually-charged (except not) church party: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mhcseattle/sets/72157594459780064/
Notice all the RED in the photos. Hey, look at that, a themed party. If you can look at a box of Hot Tamales candy and know there is nothing sexual about it, please be open to the idea that maybe a RED hot church party isn't sexual either.

As for drinking alcoholic beverages, I cannot identify with your apparent condemnation of alcohol altogether (this seems to be implied by your post, as you consider the inclusion of "cerveza" wrong). I would not encourage alcohol at get-togethers, but I could not write someone off for thinking otherwise. I do understand an individual decision to abstain.

Also I cannot identify with your condemnation of parties (at least, I gathered from your post that it wasn't just alcoholic drinks you had problems with). I have seen this in Jehovah's Witness beliefs, but honestly I am not sure how to best discuss those beliefs when a fellow Christian holds
them.

I do understand the need not to become immersed in the culture you are reaching out to, but I don't think that parties and cerveza inherently mean that one embraces a sinful culture. Parties and cerveza can be used for sin, or they can be used for fellowship. Neither of us were at the party, so neither of us really know.

Most importantly, you posted accusations of relativism and universalism in your latest posts. I then posted quotes from Pastor Mark condemning relativism and universalism, and you said nothing about that, and went on to talk about parties. Do you have anything to say about the relativism issue?

I appreciate you responding to me, but I don't understand why you are saying the things you are saying. I don't mean to sound rude, but it sounds like maybe you are looking to see things that are not there? I do this all the time too, but maybe it's worth a second look this time.

[Josh]

But there is not a lot of leeway as to what "styles" of languages a pastor is allowed in preaching. It is from the Bible that we are not to use crude language even for daily conversations, full stop ("period" for those of you who don't understand intl English ^_^). What language Mark is using may not cause a great deal of attention from a 25-year old American evangelical-church attending Christian, but he will certainly scandalize a 25-year old evangelical-church attending Christian from Hong Kong or Singapore.

And I'm speaking this as someone belonging to your generation - although I'm four years older than you. :lol2 You don't even the experience of age to see the approach of language is not proper.

Not to forget that his shares with the Emergent Church the belief that "the Kingdom of God is on earth now, and it is the Church".
I think your first point is a fair one. If we think Mark's language is not always appropriate for the pulpit, then we should honestly state this as our problem with his preaching. If someone says "knocked up" in a sermon, we don't then accuse him of being a relativist (which you haven't done).

As for your Kingdom quote, I would have to know what was meant before judging it. Without context or explanation, it seems vague.

[Pleye]

Quote:
Moving "from the moral to mystical" is another way of saying that mystical experience is more important in leadership than doctrine or theology. Interestingly, Leith Anderson who contributed to the Christianity Today article with Kimball and Driscoll has stated virtually the same thing

Great. When I was in Bible College one class we had was required to purchase the book "A church for the 21st century" by Anderson. I never even cracked the cover. It is sitting on my shelf. They even had him come to speak for a few nightly sessions. I didn't go.

Maybe there is a reason why?

Garbage can, meet Anderson's "works."

[Pleye]

I read a few of Brian McLaren's books, loved A New Kind of Christian. One of the most thought-provoking books I've ever read.

We have a local church here who lumps themselves in with the "free" methodists. They believe is "community" and as such have chosen to free themselves from a place by renting a facility (room) instead of buying. Nothing wrong. On their website they list (by name) groups that they have helped out. They don't hire anyone, just have volunteers.

But then they have no problem begging for money to send one of the volunteer team to spend a week with Brian McLaren so they can be more effective at reaching the community.

What is the effect? Simply, the guy had a nice little story to tell about what happened to him while sitting in the airport that he posted to his blog.

Thus far, any churches I've participated in that bother with this stuff are no more effective at reaching their community than they were before they "invested". From "12 weeks on the purpose of the church" to "purpose driven life" to "40 days of community" I've seen 10 years of this stuff go by and in the end we still have the same lack of community involvement that we did before. Just that we've bought a lot of books and spent a lot of time talking about it.

Just my view from here.

[Pleye]

Sing4Him, above I mentioned that Driscoll pointed out Brian McLaren, Doug Pagitt, and Rob Bell as teachers of false doctrine.

What do you make of his statements in my first two posts? What is one to decide when his sermons are always so biblically conservative?

How can I condemn a man who describes his church as "emerging", but whose biblical conservatism appears to be nothing short of a light in the darkness?



Josh, I know nothing about these people but something came to mind that I wanted to share:

Matthew 12:25
Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.

Meaning, that although your Pastor may denounce others with the same ideology as him, but he still employees the same ideology as them.

You have to remember that even a New Ager can be very Biblically conservative and they are able to use only the Bible verses (out of context) that support their claims.

It is more important that you search the scriptures and test what he is saying by becoming absolutely familiar with the context to which he speaks.

[Josh]

You have to remember that even a New Ager can be very Biblically conservative and they are able to use only the Bible verses (out of context) that support their claims.
Hi Pleye, thanks for responding. I would say that what you describe here is NOT Biblical conservatism. A Biblical liberal is someone who takes verses out of context to support wacky claims. When I say he is Biblically conservative, I don't mean that he knows how to read a Bible verse. Judging from Pastor Mark's words a few posts up he would be the first to condemn new age or mysticism.

[Josh]

A short video clip of Driscoll on his view that there are non-negotiable, unchanging Biblical principles, and his view that there should be changing cultural methods.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WuKIxQszJw&mode=related&search=

[Bernardd]

Bernardd,

Do you agree with the UN, world council of Churches, the Jesus Seminar, Jay Gary, Barbara Marx Hubbard, and their Earth Charter? Jesus wants a new political social new world order kingdom, now?

UN? not really. Would like to see it .... go away.
Jesus Charter? No
Jay Gary? Don't know who he is.
Barbara Hubbard? don't know who She it. (L Ron?)

My point is that I enjoyed the book and thought it was very ... thought provoking. Did I agree with the book? Some parts, yes; some parts, no.

Question: Did you read the book?

The book was given to me by a student some years back (a senior). I read it and was very skeptical. It opened up a great year-long dialogue between me and that student. The following year a few other students read it, and before I knew it the entire class had read it. (This was my junior/senior Bible class.) The book became somewhat of a foundation where the students were forced not only to call into question what they believed but also to conduct research in order to substantiate their own beliefs (and McLaren's). It was one of the best classes I've ever taught.

[Bernardd]

We have a local church here who lumps themselves in with the "free" methodists. They believe is "community" and as such have chosen to free themselves from a place by renting a facility (room) instead of buying. Nothing wrong. On their website they list (by name) groups that they have helped out. They don't hire anyone, just have volunteers.

But then they have no problem begging for money to send one of the volunteer team to spend a week with Brian McLaren so they can be more effective at reaching the community.

What is the effect? Simply, the guy had a nice little story to tell about what happened to him while sitting in the airport that he posted to his blog.

Thus far, any churches I've participated in that bother with this stuff are no more effective at reaching their community than they were before they "invested". From "12 weeks on the purpose of the church" to "purpose driven life" to "40 days of community" I've seen 10 years of this stuff go by and in the end we still have the same lack of community involvement that we did before. Just that we've bought a lot of books and spent a lot of time talking about it.

Just my view from here.

I'm no expert on Brian McLaren. Furthermore, I don't know much about emergent theology, other than I'm not interested in it because it appears to me to be just another sugar-coated means to view God. Of course, I could say the same thing about many other "denominations" that rely on emotions and feelings as some type of religious experience.

However, I did enjoy the book...so much so that I read the sequel. I forgot the name of the sequel because it really wasn't very interesting. Hence, McLaren seems to be a one hit wonder. He wrote a great book that I really enjoyed and couldn't follow up.