I go to to Mars Hill Church (in Seattle). What about this emerging/ent stuff?

[Josh]

I've placed this thread in this forum because I see that it is where discussion on emergent/ing church stuff is supposed to go. I am in no way implying that Mars Hill Church is involved in apostasy or somesuch.

I currently attend and give money to Mars Hill Church in Seattle, WA (apparently there is a church in Michigan or something that has the same name).

It is pastored by Mark Driscoll.

It is extremely popular. I believe it is the largest church in the state. There seems to be some sort of association with some sort of emergent or emerging churches.

I have zero tolerance for liberals and mushy-truthers. I have so far found him to be quite biblically conservative. He does not have much of a tolerance for today's "tolerance" of everything (ex: in a recent sermon he preached about how we should not compromise and offend God's truth to avoid offending people), which I also like. In an article (http://criswell.wordpress.com/files/2006/03/3,2%20APastoralPerspectiveontheEmergentChurch%5BDr iscoll%5D.PDF) he wrote, he states:
Scripture commands us to "contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints" (Jude 3). Therefore, the truths of Christianity are constant, unchanging, and meant for all people, times, and places. But, the methods by which truth is articulated and practiced must be culturally appropriated and therefore constantly translated (1 Cor 9:22-23).Do any of you have specific thoughts on this particular church? I'm sure some of you out there have heard of it.

The Wikipedia article on my pastor has him quoted as saying:
In the mid-1990s I was part of what is now known as the Emerging Church and spent some time traveling the country to speak on the emerging church in the emerging culture on a team put together by Leadership Network called the Young Leader Network. But, I eventually had to distance myself from the Emergent stream of the network because friends like Brian McLaren and Doug Pagitt began pushing a theological agenda that greatly troubled me. Examples include referring to God as a chick, questioning God's sovereignty over and knowledge of the future, denial of the substitutionary atonement at the cross, a low view of Scripture, and denial of hell which is one hell of a mistake.

So anyway. Shouldn't a church be judged on how Biblically conservative it is? Am I missing something in my assessment?

[Josh]

I should also mention that there was a conference a couple of weeks ago he spoke at. I heard he pointed out Brian McLaren, Doug Pagitt, and Rob Bell as teachers of false doctrine.

Also, in a Christianity Today article (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/julyweb-only/127-52.0.html) he is quoted:
The two hot theologies today are Reformed and emerging. Reformed theology offers certainty, with a masculine God who names our sin, crushes Jesus on the Cross for it, and sends us to hell if we fail to repent. Emerging theology offers obscurity, with a neutered God who would not say an unkind word to us, did not crush Jesus for our sins, and would not send anyone to hell. I came to Reformed theology by preaching through books of the Bible such as Exodus, Romans, John, and Revelation, along with continually repenting of my sin. I am, however, a boxers, not briefs, Reformed guy. I am pretty laid back about it and not uptight and tidy like many Reformed guys....
The difficulty is that there are actually three ways that faithful Christians and churches must respond to culture:
Reject—Some aspects of a culture are simply sinful and should be rejected by God's people. In our day this would include sexual sins (fornication, pornography, homosexuality, adultery), illegal drug use, and the pluralistic notion that every religion is an equally valid path to salvation.
Receive—Some aspects of a culture are the result of common grace and should be received by God's people. Examples in our day would include stewarding and enjoying creation, building community, and acts of mercy for the poor, widows, orphans, sick, and elderly.
Redeem—Some aspects of a culture are, in and of themselves, morally neutral but are used for evil, and can be redeemed for good. Examples in our day include using media portals (e.g., internet, podcast, vodcast) for the gospel, celebrating sex within heterosexual marriage, and spending money and using power in such a way that honors Jesus and demonstrates his love for people.I think my church is still classified as an "emerging" church. Is that necessarily bad? He seems pretty theologically sound.

[Christy]

It is extremely popular.

These 4 words alone judge it for what it is (without even getting into the obvious doctrinal shortfalls):

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Proverbes 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Besides,

1 Thessalonians 5:21 tells us
Test everything. Hold on to the good

and

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 7:16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

They seem okay, they seem good, and they are perceived as meek and loving, but one can see the "wolf" coming out in the very words that they utter, which go against the Bible (doctrinally or otherwise).

Ephesians 6:17
Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

What seems to be happening out there is that the emergents are now tagging the signs & wonders movement as the "false prophets/teachers" and vice versa. Which is merely a case of the pot calling the kettle black. (From what I've seen, the new pseudo prophets and apostles clearly fall into the emergent church category, because they're neither hither or thither - they are still trying to discover what they believe or don't believe - wow! talk about C-O-N-F-U-S-E-D).

Mark Driscoll is clearly a "neo-evangelical repackaged in a broadly reformed parcel". You can read about him here:

http://herescope.blogspot.com/2007/07/gospel-coalitions-hodge-podge.html

[petras]

wow Christy calling or inferring he is a wolf inwardly is a scary thing to infer about someone. i hope you have more than that one article to call upon as a character witness. i might not agree with him on everything but to use that scripture seems unwarranted. i have heard him speak with boldness against what the emerging church has become. im not really a big fan of popular ministries either, but not all popular ministries are bad. John Piper, Lenard Ravenhill, Tozer, and lots of pretribers are/were popular among Godly people.
josh knowing you live in seattle you might want to stay put in that Church.

[Sing4Him]

Christy is speaking the truth of scripture here.


Moving "from the moral to mystical" is another way of saying that mystical experience is more important in leadership than doctrine or theology. Interestingly, Leith Anderson who contributed to the Christianity Today article with Kimball and Driscoll has stated virtually the same thinghttp://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/newsletter080607.htm

2007 National Pastors Convention

The 2007 National Pastors Convention (presented by Zondervan publishers) carries a heavy-weight line up of speakers. From Ruth Haley Barton to Brian McLaren next year's convention will not be lacking in New Age sympathizing, meditation promoting speakers. John Burke, president of Emerging Leadership Initiative, was recently a speaker at the Ancient Wisdom conference, and says this of the church of the future:

What do a Buddhist, a biker couple, a gay-rights activist, a transient, a high-tech engineer, a Muslim, a twenty-something single mom, a Jew, a couple living together, and an atheist all have in common? They are the future church in America! Most of them are in their twenties or thirties and became followers of Christ in the past five years. Many are now leading others in our church.
Emergent leaders Dan Kimball, Mark Driscoll, and Doug Paggit are on the speakers list as are other emerging/contemplative promoting authors such as Robert Webber (Ancient-Future Worship), Lauren Winner (Girl Meets God), and Gary Thomas (Sacred Pathways). Of Eugene Peterson, Stuart Briscoe and Phyllis Tickle, Zondervan says:
Meet this year's sages! These wise, experienced ministry leaders will be onsite and readily available to meet with you and your team by appointment. They're coming to answer your hard questions regarding real-life ministry issues and in turn give insight into what has helped them run the race well for so many years.
Unfortunately, the answers that this long line of speakers at the 2007 convention will be offering, will point participants to a spirituality that shuffles off the gospel message of Jesus Christ and introduces a sensual, demonic belief system that will bring much harm and damage. We hope you will be able to convince your pastor and other church leaders that this is not an event they should attend. For more information: Our research on the National Pastors Convention

------------------------------------------------------------

Mystical Encounters for Christians at the NPC
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/nationalpastors.htm

[Sing4Him]

The following quotes are by those who promote contemplative and/or emerging spirituality and share similar views on the return of Christ:

If you want Jesus to come back sooner, focus on fulfilling your mission, not figuring out prophecy. (Rick Warren, PDL, pp. 285-286)

Tony Campolo says that Christians who "make a big thing of their claim that we are now living in the final stage of church history prior to the second coming of Christ" have been the cause of "extremely detrimental" consequences. They "discount the Sermon on the Mount," they don't care about the needy, and they have had such a negative "impact on geopolitics," which Campolo says "can lead only to war." Basically, according to Campolo they are the reason the world is in such a mess, and they are holding back progress of a more emerging spirituality. (Faith Undone, p. 160, quoting Tony Campolo, Speaking My Mind)

It is time that the church woke up to its true mission, which is to materialize the kingdom of God on earth, today, here and now.... People are no longer interested in a possible heavenly state or a probable hell. They need to learn that the kingdom is here, and must express itself on earth ... The way into that kingdom is the way that Christ trod. It involves the sacrifice of the personal self for the good of the world, and the service of humanity ... (Occultist,Alice Bailey)

Robert Schuller's advice to young church leaders would seem to apply to new apostolic Christians: "Don't let eschatology stifle your long-term thinking." (C. P. Wagner, from Reinventing Jesus Christ

We are not eschatological Theonomists or Classic Dispensationalists (e.g. Scofield) and believe that divisive and dogmatic certainty surrounding particular details of Jesus Second Coming are unprofitable speculation, because the timing and exact details of His return are unclear to us. (Mark Driscoll, Acts 29 Network

Former New Age follower, Warren Smith explains what happened to him and how he came to understand the significance of Bible prophecy in light of Christ's return:

Coming out of New Age teachings, I had learned in a very personal way that the details of Jesus' return are definitely our business. Understanding the events surrounding His return was critical to understanding how badly I had been deceived by my New Age teachings. I had learned from reading the Bible that there is a false Christ on the horizon and that for a number of years I had unknowingly been one of his followers. Because the Bible's clear authoritative teachings about the real Jesus and His true return had been brought to my attention, I was able to see how deceived I was. By understanding that there is a false Christ trying to counterfeit the true Christ's return, I was able to renounce the false Christ I had been following and commit my life to the true Jesus Christ. (from Deceived on Purpose, p. 147)

In the Bible in the book of Revelation, it says that Satan will deceive the whole world (Revelation 12:9). The emerging church movement has three essential elements that are consistent throughout the movement that may help this great deception to occur:

1. The embracing of mysticism
2. The belief that the kingdom of God will be established on earth BEFORE Christ returns.
3. The rejection of eschatology (the study of end-times and Bible prophecy relating to it).
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/newsletter092807.htm

[Sing4Him]

National Pastor's Convention Starts This Week
Promoting Contemplative
Zondervan's National Pastor's Convention began this week. The event will be attended by many pastors and church leaders, but unfortunately participants will get a heavy dose of contemplative and emerging spiritualities. Please see our updates on this event:

Mark Driscoll Recommends Contemplative Authors/Participates at Emergent Event

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/newsletter020507.htm

[Sing4Him]

MARK DRISCOLL AND CERVESAS: NOW YOU SEE THE BEER; NOW YOU DON’T
Mark Driscoll boasts in his book The Radical Reformission (TRR) that, “I want to unabashedly play plank and speck with the numerous Christians who consider alcohol consumption unfit for God’s people and a measure of one’s lack of piety” (145) Um, there’s no mention of wanting to play plank and speck with those of us who call him out for sharing the platform with Word Faith mogul and Oneness Pentecostal heretic T.D. Jakes.

In my post Mark Driscoll: Emergent No More?! I linked to the ad MARS HILL’S CINCO DE SERVICE. Well, lo and behold now the beer has come up missing. Originally the blurb read:

Viva La Fiesta! This party is going to be be fabulous! From the team that brought you the Red Hot Bash, this over-the-top party is not to be missed. Decor! Taquitos! Chimichangas! Cervesas! Mariachis! and Mas! (emphasis mine)
You can still see it by scrolling down to the bottom of this link. But now the ad has been changed without explanation and the word cervesas (Spanish: beer) has mysteriously vanished:

Viva La Fiesta! This party is going to be be fabulous! From the team that brought you the Red Hot Bash, this over-the-top party is not to be missed. Decor! Taquitos! Chimichangas! Mariachis! and Mas!
Interesting; some have lambasted me for drawing attention to beer being part of this particular church “celebration” (see–TRR, 150) and plenty of profane Emergent howls from Hell erupted at me in defense of Tony Jones when I pointed out he said, “the Bible is an f***king scary book.” A plethora of Emergent arguments have thus proceeded for their right to swear and to be able to imbibe beer.

And suddenly Mars Hill–no, not THAT Rob Bell one silly, the OTHER Mars Hill–home church to the daring Driscoll pulls the word cervesas from their ad. How about that; now the church of the loquacious man lovingly known as “the cussing pastor” is giving the appearance of being concerned about how they are being perceived concerning their upcoming beer party.

Well, maybe Mark “I am not Emergent” (echoes of Richard Nixon) Driscoll will get the leadership together to go over chapter 6 of TRR, “the sin of light beer,” where Driscoll does the Church an incredible service by informing us:

My Bible study convicted me of my sin of abstinence from alcohol. So in repentance I drank a hard cider over lunch with our youth pastor. Since that time, further studies of church history have led me to discover that a number of God’s people down through the years have greatly enjoyed alcohol... (146).
By the way, one assumes the reference to sin above is an emerging lame attempt to be clever. And then later Driscoll anticipates a question from his readers:

“Why does all of this matter?” It matters because alcohol is a very real example of the pitfalls of syncretism and sectarianism. Prohibition began as a syncretistic liberalism that took away alcohol and the Christian freedom to drink. This happened because churches aligned themselves with a non-Christian feminism that attempted to eliminate the pub as a gathering place for men to do theology, politics, and business. This syncretism undermined the clear teachings of Scripture in an effort to fabricate a theology that supported its cultural form of morality.
Over time the prohibitionist mindset became so entrenched in evangelical and fundamentalist thinking that it is now a sectarian belief intended to keep God’s people out of the pubs, clubs, and dinner parties where sinners gather to make friendships and memories–the very places where Jesus was often found... Confusion about the gospel is truly at the root of this issue. (151)
Ok, then why would Mars Hill now feel the need to remove the reference to beer? It couldn’t be that the ol’ cusser Mark is trying to straddle a fence...or could it?
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/04/mark_driscoll_a.html

[petras]

so Sing let me make sure i understand this........you are saying that mark driscoll is a wolf in sheeps clothing. he is not just someone in error, not someone who saw the errors of the emerging church and trying to get out of it, not as someone who repented, regenerated transformed from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light by being justified by faith alone in Christ, not as someone who in immaturity said, did, maybe even continuesto do some things that as you get older you see for the immaturity that it was, but you see him as a wolf wanting to destroy the work of Christ on earth and cause people to be tormented for ever in hell. as i look at what he has taught, stood for, the manner of how he has loved his wife and family. how he has stood along side people like john piper, mark dever and others it seems his fruit would seem to say hes is a believer. maybe not as wise as some but i dont think that makes him a wolf. i am wondering what teachers you recommend, if you dont mind? being a moderator, i would think when you speak people take notice, that why i want to make sure that i understand if you are really calling him an actual wolf that only looks like a sheep.

[Josh]

I am at work, so I haven't done an in-depth examination of this thread yet. It seems a large part of the frowning on Mark Driscoll has to do with his association with certain other people. Does it matter that he has pointed out Brian McLaren, Doug Pagitt, and Rob Bell as teachers of false doctrine, and likened them to the Ebionites? Wouldn't this seem to indicate a great theological divide between them?