The 144,000 in Rev. 7

[Windsong]

12000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel

[acceptedintheBeloved]

I thought this was interesting, and have posted it before...

(you may have heard of Chuck Missler's explanation of the meanings of the 10 names listed in Genesis 5 ["The Gospel in Genesis 5" http://www.khouse.org/articles/1996/44/ ]... this is similar, but is about the names listed in Revelation 7, regarding the 144,000):



Curiously, these twelve tribal patriarchs are not listed in their chronological birth order. Since the Bible normally identifies genealogies chronologically, this contrast is attention getting. Judah, listed first, was actually the fourth son of Jacob and his wife Leah, and Manasseh, Joseph’s son, is listed before his father. Similarly the other names are not listed in any apparent order, or are they? Conspicuous scriptural abnormalities like this compel a deeper analysis. A standard starting point of exploration is to discern the meaning of the names to see if they are message-formatted. This method finds application in the case of the 144,000 witnesses.

The Meaning of the Names: Judah- Praise God; Reuben- behold a son; Gad- good fortune; Asher- happiness; Naphtali- my wrestling or struggle; Manasseh- God has caused me to forget; Simeon-hearing; Levi-joining or grafting in; Issachar- God hath given me my hire, or has reinstated me; Zebulun- elevated or elevated position; Joseph- adding or increasing; Benjamin- son of the right hand.[iv]

The Message of the Names: Praise God! Behold a Son of good fortune and happiness. My struggle, God has caused me to forget. Hearing of our grafting in, God has reinstated me into an elevated position, increased by the Son of the right hand.

The Mission Statement: Inherent in these oddly ordered names, appears to be the ministerial message of the 144,000 witnesses. Their “Mission Statement” should read as follows: Praise God for the gospel of Christ, a Son of good fortune and happiness. My struggle with sin and the Mosaic Law, God has caused me to forget. Hearing of the mystery of our grafting in with the Gentiles,[v] God has reinstated me into an elevated position of ministry once again, and is increasing those being saved through Christ, the Son of the right hand.[vi]


"The Message of the 144,000 Future Jews for Jesus" by Bill Salus

http://www.prophecydepot.net/2008/the-message-of-the-144000-future-jews-for-jesus/

[OtherSideOfTheBoat]

Doesn't the name of Dan means judgment?

[acceptedintheBeloved]

Doesn't the name of Dan means judgment?

As I understand it, the name "Dan" means "God is my judge"... interesting that his name (though one of the twelve tribes) is not listed in Revelation 7 (regarding the future 144,000 from the 12 tribes).





ETA: Here's a brief thought from "GotQuestions?" (to go along with the other link and excerpt I posted, above):

http://www.gotquestions.org/twelve-tribes-Israel.html

[Stacey]

Thanks all for the answers. Now that I know I can explain it to people go ask about it. I wasn't sure if they were the Jews sealed by God or the trib saints. And 144,000 didn't seem like many for trib saints but it does make more sense being sealed Jewish people. I liked the interpretaion of the names too. I never knew that :).

[acceptedintheBeloved]

I believe the "trib saints" are shown in Revelation 7:9-17 (of the same chapter) ;


9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
...

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


:hat

[brasadero]

Paul redefined Israel in saying there are two Israels in Romans 9: 6-8 and in Galatians 4: 24-26. He redefined Jew in Romans 2: 28-29. There he teaches that an outward Jew, that is, a physical descendant of Abraham who is not born from above by the Holy Spirit, is not really a Jew. An inward Jew is one who is circumcised in the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter. Following what Paul says in Galatians 3: 28, when a person of any race becomes a Christian, he or she is no longer of his or her original ethnic origin, but all are one in Christ. And there is one fold (John 10: 16), not two as the theology claims.

So, in deciding who the 144,000 are in Revelation 7: 1-8 and Revelation 14: 1-5, these texts have to be interpreted by New Testament scripture first of all, and secondly by Old Testament scripture. The New Testament says in Christ all are one and there is one fold and one shepherd, and that physical Israel is no longer the people of God if they reject Christ (Romans 9:8 and Romans 11: 19-21), but that Israel which Paul calls the Jerusalem which is above, is free, which is the mother of us all (Galatians 4: 26) is the people of God. Therefore, the 144,000 are the people of God as defined by the New Testament. They are inward Jews.

[james46888]

Paul redefined Israel in saying there are two Israels in Romans 9: 6-8 and in Galatians 4: 24-26. He redefined Jew in Romans 2: 28-29. There he teaches that an outward Jew, that is, a physical descendant of Abraham who is not born from above by the Holy Spirit, is not really a Jew. An inward Jew is one who is circumcised in the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter. Following what Paul says in Galatians 3: 28, when a person of any race becomes a Christian, he or she is no longer of his or her original ethnic origin, but all are one in Christ. And there is one fold (John 10: 16), not two as the theology claims.

So, in deciding who the 144,000 are in Revelation 7: 1-8 and Revelation 14: 1-5, these texts have to be interpreted by New Testament scripture first of all, and secondly by Old Testament scripture. The New Testament says in Christ all are one and there is one fold and one shepherd, and that physical Israel is no longer the people of God if they reject Christ (Romans 9:8 and Romans 11: 19-21), but that Israel which Paul calls the Jerusalem which is above, is free, which is the mother of us all (Galatians 4: 26) is the people of God. Therefore, the 144,000 are the people of God as defined by the New Testament. They are inward Jews.

Even if it were true that Paul redefined what a Jew is so as to allow Gentile believers to be called Jews (I'll leave someone else to debate that part with you since I have little time), how would you explain the fact that 12,000 are said to come from each of the twelve tribes if they are not all ethnic Jews?

[Hootmon]

Following what Paul says in Galatians 3: 28, when a person of any race becomes a Christian, he or she is no longer of his or her original ethnic origin, but all are one in Christ.Be careful to not 'overbake' that notion. It also says there is no more male or female. They are 'equals' in Christ, but that still doesnt mean they are identical.



Therefore, the 144,000 are the people of God as defined by the New Testament. They are inward Jews.They are that, but they are also 12000 from each of the twelve tribes listed.

They are both inward and outward Jews.

[acceptedintheBeloved]

Here's what I posted on a different thread:


acceptedinthebeloved wrote:


Since Israel became a nation again in 1948, precisely 2520 "biblical" years from 537BC, and Jerusalem was recaptured in 1967, precisely 2520 "biblical" years from 518BC, it would hardly seem to be mere coincidence, especially since Ezekiel 37:1-8 ("the dry bones" prophecy) describes the first stage of Israel's end time (God-ordained) purpose (and the passage which follows it tells "the rest of the story" - Ezekiel 37:8-26, 26 [esp.]).

(There's also the 2520 "biblical" years between 587BC to 1897, which was pretty much the starting point of Israel's ultimately becoming a nation in 1948.)


Now, what would be the purpose of these precise (time-related) fulfillments of prophecy concerning (literal) Israel, if there is to be no "end times" significance or purpose for Israel (not to mention their future, promised/prophesied, earthly Millennial Kingdom)?


(see Isaiah 11:11, 12 and Matthew 24:29-30, 31 for "Israel's regathering" in belief, after the tribulation period)


Here's a quote, which may or may not help:


"In these three chapters of Romans 9, 10, and 11, we have an outline of the dealings of God with His earthly people Israel. He has turned aside from them as a nation to-day, in order that He may form the assembly by the present gospel going forth to both Jews and Gentiles as we read in Romans 16:25, 'the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery.' In Romans 9, we read of His past dealings with them; in Romans 10, His present dealings; and in Romans 11, His future dealings.

"In each chapter we have a reference to Christ as we should expect. In Romans 9:5 it is a reference
to His birth, 'of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, Who is over all, God blessed for ever.' That looks backwards. In Romans 10:7, 'Who shall descend into the deep?' (That is, to bring up Christ again from the dead). That is His present place in resurrection, as verse 9 assures us. In Romans 11:26, 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer.' That obviously looks on to the future. We see in Ephesians the breadth of Divine counsel and we read there that all things in heaven and on earth are headed up in Christ.

"These three chapters in Romans deal with the earthly side of the inheritance, involving the restoration of Israel and their taking the lead among the nations as the head and not the tail in the establishment of the world to come. Christ maintains a link with them according to these three chapters, and He it is Who will eventually deliver them and put them into their place at His appearing. Christ is the centre of all, all is headed up in Him, and he will bring all into line with the counsel of God."

- George Davison





Also, I agree with this quote by Arnold J. Fruchtenbaum:


"The term 'Israel' appears exactly 73 times in the New Testament and not once does it refer to the Church. It will sometimes refer to all Jews in general and sometimes specifically to Jewish believers, but never to Gentile believers and never to the Church. Therefore, Dispensationalism affirms that what God promised to Israel He will keep to Israel and what He promised to the Church He will keep to the Church and the Church does not replace Israel in God’s covenantal program. Therefore, whatever promises have not been fulfilled up to the present time will be fulfilled in the future."

- Arnold J. Fruchtenbaum



(see also, 1 Cor 10:32 - "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.")



... and C.E. Stuart:


God's ways with, and promises to, His earthly people; for they are His people who enjoyed special privileges, and have had made to them special promises. (Rom. 9:1-5.) To a consideration of this point - a most important one - the apostle next turns, in chapters 9 - 11.

Under three heads does he treat of this:

1, The ways of God with Israel in the past (Rom. 9:6-24);

2, The word of God about Israel and the Gentiles (Rom. 9:25 - 10:21);

3, The purposes of God about Israel in the future. (Rom. 11)

- C.E. Stuart


The overall context of Romans 9-11 is "nations" ("Israel" and "Gentiles").