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bigd
December 20th, 2009, 11:47 PM
Has anybody heard that the 144,000 will serve the 24 priestly courses (1CHRON 24) of sabbaths in the millenniel temple? 24 courses x 6 priests = 144 x 1,000 years= 144,000 Saint Texas is so right on. We don't call it "Judeo-Christian" roots for nothing. Jesus' first and second comings are so beutifully portrayed in the feasts of the Lord. (LEV 23) I started visiting a Messianic church this fall to observe the feast of trumpets and atonement then our little home church built a tabernacle for the feast of booths. It was a great learning experience. I will definitely visit during Passover, Firstfruits and Pentecost to observe the spring feasts as well. Good knowledge for any Christian. Somehow I cannot help but feel we will celebrate these feasts in the Millenniel Kingdom.

bigd
December 26th, 2009, 12:40 PM
Well, I know that DAN introduced idolatry to the Northern Kingdom of Israel (golden calf worship) and was omitted from other Scriptures besides this one.

Ephraim is omitted and likewise chastened in Scripture for idolatry. (HOSEA 4:17)
MARANATHA

Obadiah
December 26th, 2009, 01:41 PM
bigd:

The idea that "Dan introduced idolatry" is presumably derived from Judges 18, but there's no explicit connection between this incident and the absence of Dan from Revelation 7. In what "other Scriptures" is Dan omitted? Certainly not in Ezekiel's temple vision (Ezekiel 48:1).

"Ephraim" in Hosea 4:17 does not refer specifically to the tribe of Ephraim but to the northern kingdom as a whole. The prophets often use "Ephraim" in this sense (e.g., in the immediately ensuing context of Hosea 5).

bigd
December 26th, 2009, 08:12 PM
bigd:

The idea that "Dan introduced idolatry" is presumably derived from Judges 18, but there's no explicit connection between this incident and the absence of Dan from Revelation 7. In what "other Scriptures" is Dan omitted? Certainly not in Ezekiel's temple vision (Ezekiel 48:1).

"Ephraim" in Hosea 4:17 does not refer specifically to the tribe of Ephraim but to the northern kingdom as a whole. The prophets often use "Ephraim" in this sense (e.g., in the immediately ensuing context of Hosea 5).


No explicit connection, but I guess as good an answer for omission from REV 7 as the antichrist or false prophet coming from the tribe of Dan. There was no Scripture reference for that theory, so I will assume you are picking me out for some reason and not because posts have to have correct Scriptural evidence. Sorry, Dan is not omitted from Scripture outside of REV 7. I admit that was a bad post on my part. They are involved in idolatry maybe more so than other tribes. "Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves [of] gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan." (1KINGS 12:28-29) Dan was a center for idol worship throughout the Old Testament. In the Milenniel Kingdom I believe all things will be restored, thus, so will Dan. So will all of Israel. "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" (ROM 11:26) That is why I believe Dan is not omitted from Ezekiel's temple. As for your contention that Ephraim is not singled out but is used to represent all of the Northern Kingdom, that is OK by me too. Guess idolatry is not the reason these two tribes are omitted from REV 7. It is there for us to wonder and not try to understand. That is why I say...
MARANATHA

steven84
December 26th, 2009, 09:51 PM
Dan is the tribe that is not listed

Hootmon
December 27th, 2009, 12:24 AM
Dan is the tribe that is not listedThere is an awful lot of speculation based on what Scripture doesnt say...

bigd
December 27th, 2009, 10:57 AM
Hootmon,
Praise God you at least try to understand. "Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand." (REV 1:3) Many people don't even open REV with the comment, "we can't understand it." Speculation is often all we can do with unfulfilled prophecy. Don't give it up. Here is some real speculation. What if the 144,000 serve every Sabbath in the 24 courses of the Levitical priesthood (1CHRON 24:7-18) during the millenniel reign in the millenniel temple? What if 6 priests served every sabbath during the 24 courses (6 x 24) for 1,000 years? (6 x 24 x 1,000 = 144,000) More useless conjecture, I am sure, but the math is interesting. Why that number? Scripture does say that they follow the Lamb (high priest) wherever He goes. "Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them." (REV 7:15) Would there be a reason that would exclude Dan and Ephraim? I find these things interesting, but can I prove them? No, but it does not stop me from wondering. This question might be better viewed through a Jewish perspective. Keep searching...
MARANATHA

tfcrew
December 27th, 2009, 12:42 PM
Dan is not listed as one of the 12,
there are a few different conjectures as to why,
one of them being that either the AC or FP will come from this tribe


http://www.blueletterbible.org/commentaries/comm_view.cfm?AuthorID=7&contentID=3103&commInfo=6&topic=Revelation&ar=Rev_7_4

maybe someone can expand on this?
very interesting question
The guys that do that link believe that 144,000 is only a symbolic number.
There is no biblical support for that.


There is an awful lot of speculation based on what Scripture doesnt say...
Exactly

The idea that "Dan introduced idolatry" is presumably derived from Judges 18
The 'children of Dan' actually.
See Gen 49 the prophecy for Dan

16Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.

17Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

18I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.

19Gad, a troop shall overcome him: but he shall overcome at the last.
I have absolutely no idea what it means.

All the apostles were Jewish [Judah, Benjamin or Levi tribe]. Judas' very name means Judah.


But there were many people from all the tribes living in Judea (e.g., the widow Anna), so, even if Judas was from Keriot, that doesn't indicate his tribal identity.

Scripture doesn't tell us, so we don't know. We know that he was Jewish. One prophetess from the tribe of Asher does not mean many people from all the tribes. Scipture doesn't tell us.

Caveman
December 27th, 2009, 02:30 PM
I find it curious that Flavius Josephus in Antiquities of the Jews (65AD)
states "Dan; One may interpret that name in the Greek tongue, a divine judgement"

Obadiah
December 28th, 2009, 02:36 PM
Bigd:

Actually, I was asking for biblical evidence for your assertion that Dan was somehow responsible for Israel’s idolatry, since (at lest as I read you) you were proposing that as the basis for your speculation for the omission of Dan in Revelation 7.

The placement of Baal the bull god in the city of Dan doesn’t much support the idea. The one who placed the bull god figures in Dan and Bethel was Jeroboam, who was not of Dan but of Ephraim. The placement of the idols in those cities was geographical: Dan was the northernmost city in Israel and Bethel was at the very south of Israel (Jeroboam’s kingdom, that is). “Dan and Bethel” is the northern kingdom equivalent of “Dan and Beersheva” in reference to the full nation of Israel.

The reason I raise the issue is that I’ve heard this explanation before (it dates back at least to Bullinger, probably longer) and it has become the source of some extremely speculative teaching about the antichrist arising from the tribe of Dan, which is in turn supposedly supported by the prophecy in Genesis 49 cited above by tfcrew. That prophecy basically means that Dan will be adversarial from a position of disadvantage (like a snake that bites a horse’s leg) and likely has nothing to do with the omission of Dan in Revelation 7.

Caveman:

Josephus’ observation isn’t all that curious: Dan resembles the Hebrew root DYN, ‘to judge’ (thus the wordplay in Genesis 49:16).

Tfcrew:

When you assert that “All the apostles were Jewish [Judah, Benjamin or Levi tribe]. Judas' very name means Judah,” you cannot possibly substantiate that statement. First, Levi is not one of the tribes that made up the southern kingdom. Second, the fact that Judas bore the name of Judah doesn’t mean he was of that tribe. Third, one is “Jewish” no matter what tribe he represents.

In reference to Anna the prophetess, even if she were highly exceptional, there’s still no way you can guarantee that the twelve apostles were all of the tribes of Judah or Benjamin. And Anna is hardly exceptional. I’m on vacation and without access to my library, but there are a substantial number of references in Chronicles to people migrating from the northern to the southern kingdom in order to remain faithful to God and escape the idolatry institutionalized from the time of Jeroboam.