View Full Version : Doesn't John 3:5 require baptism for salvation?

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August 9th, 2007, 08:43 AM
Water baptism is a confession before men... the outward acknowledgment of the inward acceptance.Scripture never actually says that.

'Confession' is quite literally an essentially verbal thing...

Thayer Definition:
1) to say the same thing as another, i.e. to agree with, assent
2) to concede
2a) not to refuse, to promise
2b) not to deny
2b1) to confess
2b2) declare
2b3) to confess, i.e. to admit or declare one’s self guilty of what one is accused of
3) to profess
3a) to declare openly, speak out freely
3b) to profess one’s self the worshipper of one
4) to praise, celebrate
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a compound of the base of G3674 and G3056
Citing in TDNT: 5:199, 687

August 9th, 2007, 10:23 AM

It just sounded to me like you were equating Jesus' profession of us before the Father with water Baptism.

August 9th, 2007, 01:54 PM
Exodus 29 sets forth the procedure for induction into the office of Priest. The first thing that must come was cleansing - washing with water.

Exodus 29:4 - "And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water."

Just as the sons of Aaon were the priests through whom the people of Israel could approach God, so the nation of Israel itself will one day be "a kingdom of priests and an holy nation" through whom the Gentiles will draw near to God. I once again reference Gen. 12:1-3, 22:17; Isaiah 60:1-3; Zechariah 8:20-23.

The baptism of repentance for the remission of sins by John the Baptist (Mark 1:4) was a means of national repentance and preparation to be the kingdom of priests God ordained the nation of Israel to be. It didn't have anything to do with the Gentile nation in that context.

It's all about right division of Scripture. If we don't rightly divide God's Word properly, passages are taken out of context. 2 Timothy 2:15 - "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING the word of truth."

Remember that John the Baptist and Jesus Christ both ministered to the Jewish nation - the nation of Israel. The Apostle Paul ministered to the Gentile nations, and it is in his teachings (Romans thru Philemon) that we are to find our doctrinal beliefs for this dispensation of grace. If we try to establish our doctrines from the 4 gospels, we are going back under law, and
disregarding that Christ was born under the law (Gal. 4:4) and taught under the law. A study of the book of Galatians will clearly explain this. Paul admonished the Galatians for reverting back to the law after knowing about grace.

While ALL Scripture is given by God and is useful and should teach us important lessons about God and our Christian walk, not all Scripture is written ABOUT us nor is it instruction TO us.

Many blessings to all.

August 9th, 2007, 02:24 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm then why did Jesus get water baptized, if it was only for a cleansing of sins or to make sure no sin was upon them?

Jesus was SINLESS!!! It was common practice at the time to be immersed when going through a major life change, especially in regard to the spiritual things.

Jesus was baptised to mark the beginning of his 3.5 year ministry.
A 'rebirth' of sorts.

August 9th, 2007, 04:15 PM
it was not for cleansing only the word is very clear we are born in through water , spirit and blood :)

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness on the earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three are into the one.

August 9th, 2007, 09:12 PM
Yes, Jesus was sinless, but, according to Jewish Law, (and Jesus was a Jew), He had to be ceremonially cleansed in order to take His place as High Priest to the little flock - the Jewish believers.

John's baptism became a watershed issue for Israel. Luke 7:29, 30 says, "And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."

This is the reason that water baptism was associated with salvation and the remission of sins. Salvation was through faith, but the only way they could express their faith was by doing what God required - preparing to function as "a royal priesthood." First must come the cleansing; then the service. Ezekial 36:25 promises Israel: "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you." The sprinkling with clean water was the necessary first step of faith in forming the nucleus of the coming kingdom, the group of Jewish believers which Christ called His "little flock."

"Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." (Luke 12:32)

The next step in preparing this believing remnant was Matthew 3:11's baptism with the Spirit. This baptism would correspond to the second rite of consecration to the priesthood - the anointing. The baptism with the Spirit would provide the needed empowering for the nation's coming service. This explains why our Lord's post-resurrection ministry ties these two things - the baptism of repentance and the anointing of the Holy Spirit - so closely together.

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues" (Mark 16:15-17).

After the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, Peter's appeal to Israel is clearly a further development of John's call to repentance:

"Then Peter said unto them, repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38) Here the order is clear: first the washing - "repent and be baptized" - and then the anointing - "ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Those who feel the role of water baptism somehow changed after Pentecost should notice that the pre-and post-resurrection baptisms were identically the same. "Repent, and be baptized ... fo the remission of sins" is exactly what John proclaimed in Mark 1:4. Nothing has changed. Rather there had simply been the historical development of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, followed by the outpouring of the Spirit. The Kingdom was no longer simply "at hand" as it had been with John; now the time had come to actually offer it to Israel.

And even after Pentecost those who refused to be baptized stood as condemned before God as did those in Luke 7:30, for Peter goes on:

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." (Acts 2:39-40)

This basic issue of gathering together the believing remnant of Israel - the "little flock: of Luke 12:32 - runs through the ministries of John, Jesus Christ, and the Twelve in early acts. This "little flock" represented the nucleus of the governmental authority for the coming kingdom. Those in Israel who refused to "repent and be baptized" - to identify themselves as those who had changed their minds about Christ being their Messiah through baptism of repentance for he remission of sins - were to be "destroyed from among the people." (Acts 3:23)

It is of this little flock of Jewish believer that Peter later writes,

"But ye are a chosen generation, a roal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Peter 2:9)

Again, in Scripture, water baptism is a ceremonil cleansing that pertained to the kingdom promised to the nation of Israel.

If water baptism is thus associated with cleansing the nation of Israel for its ministry in her kingdom, where does the baptism of Gentiles under the commisision of Matt. 28:19 fit in? Even here, water baptism is again demonstrated to symbolize cleansing - and again clearly associated with Israel's kingdom.

Remember that the priests were not the only people to be baptized. In connection with the cleansing of lepers, Lev. 14:9 instructs: "....Also he shall wash his flesh in water and he shall be clean."

The "nations" of Matthew 28:19 were of course considered "unclean" by Israel and thus must be baptized - be cleansed - in order to gain access to Israel's kingdom and acceptance into God's favor.

Both Israel and the Gentiles needed to acknowledge their need of cleansing. The former in order to be worthy to minister the things of God; the latter to be the recipient of those things.

In this dispensation of grace, faith in the shed blood of Christ is all that is needed to be saved. A new baptism emerged to take the place of water baptism - that is the baptism into one body - the Body of Christ.

Understanding of right division of Scripture will show us what God expects of us in this dispensation of grace. And I don't believe that water baptism has a place in it.

Grace and peace to all.

October 9th, 2007, 11:14 AM
Hi everyone,

Over the last 10 or so years I've engaged in discussion on baptism with many Christians in many places. I have to be honest, I haven't been baptised in a church or by another believer simply because of some differences I've had with their approach.

If anyone has insight or time, I'd like to talk about Christian baptism and what it is. Scripture references are always appreciated.

My main interest is "why does the Christian church teach the current thoughts about baptism?"

October 9th, 2007, 12:52 PM
My main interest is "why does the Christian church teach the current thoughts about baptism?"

Depends on the Church, some teach it as essential for salvation (not scriptural).
There are a variety of beliefs, what have you been taught and what questions do you have in particular. This may help the thread from wondering all over the place.

October 9th, 2007, 12:58 PM

We are human beings and we are going to look at things with a human view, but I believe baptism is an act of obedience. Jesus was baptized and that is good enough for me. Is it essential for salvation? I don't think so. There are cases where it is impossible because of disabilities. But I believe that people who are physically and mentally able should be baptized out of obedience to Jesus.
Have you prayed about it? Do you feel the Holy Spirit dealing with you to be baptized? The first step in learning what you should do is study the Bible in regards to being baptized and then praying for guidance.

October 9th, 2007, 01:27 PM
I had studied it many years ago so many of my thoughts may be gone.

My primary concern is that every church I went to said that baptism is simply "an outward expression of your faith." I don't believe that Scripture supports that view. No one I talked to at the churches was able to Scripturally support that but they said "that is what the church teaches."

The last church I was at I asked the same question and got the same answer.

I was really wondering if there is anyone on the board who believes, or whose church teaches, a more Scriptural view of baptism rather than "it is simply an outward expression of your faith."