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Velyx
January 30th, 2009, 03:22 PM
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=3&v=5&t=KJV#5

this is the verse the church uses for the reason to baptize. Am i right in thinking "the spirit" part happens when children are old enough to accept Jesus and choose to live for Christ with the knowledge/belief that Jesus' blood covered their sin?



I always assumed being born of water is the first birth of Man and being born of spirit is the
second birth of Man.

bookworm1711
January 30th, 2009, 09:47 PM
While the Roman Catholic Church may teach that John 3:5 has something to do with the rite of water baptism, they are utterly mistaken.

John 3:5 reads in the King James Version:


Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


John 3:5 reads in the Douay Rheims Roman Catholic Version:


Joh 3:5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


What the Roman Catholic Church misses, and almost all others do also, is the presence of an important figure of speech which is used here, a figure named Hendiadys.

The figure Hendiadys occurs when two words are used, but just one thing is meant.

In John 3:5 the two things involved are "water" and "spirit."

To translate this verse in a manner that reflects the meaning of this figure, the verse would read "...born of water, even the Spirit."

This figure, like all figures of speech, is used to add much emphasis to the statement. Jesus is stating that a person must be born of the Spirit if they are to enter the Kingdom of God. The figure of speech Hendiadys is used many times in the Bible, in both the Old and the New Testaments. Some instances of this figure actually prove the deity of Christ in Paul's epistles, for example (as at Titus 2:13, "great God and Savior Jesus Christ"), and also Peter in his second epistle (2 Peter 1:1, "the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ," where "our" does not affect or disallow the figure). Both texts are speaking of one Person, Our Lord Jesus Christ, and both texts directly call Him God according to Greek grammar as well as the figure Hendiadys.

But to come back down to earth where ordinary folks live, the doctrine that ritual water baptism is required for salvation, or accomplishes salvation (a view in theology called baptismal regeneration) as taught by the Roman Catholic Church and many others is a false doctrine not taught in the New Testament. The belief in baptismal regeneration arose early in Christian history, but it is based to a large degree on the misinterpretation of John 3:5 by failing to recognize the figure of speech Hendiadys that is involved.

The New Testament speaks of two categories of baptism. One category might well be called ritual water baptism. This requires the use of the element physical water, and it requires someone to administer the baptism. The other category might well be called "real baptism," which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit. When this baptism is mentioned in the New Testament you can tell because no human administrator of the physical rite is mentioned in context, and no physical water is mentioned either. Examples of instances of "real baptism" would be John 3:5 and Acts 1:5, as well as Romans 6:3, 4 and many other places, including 1 Corinthians 12:13. Generally speaking, real baptism accomplishes what no human instrumentality can possibly claim to do.

That Jesus makes use of "water" to symbolize the Holy Spirit is very clear from what is stated in John 7:38, 39 (citing the King James Version this time),


Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Jesus in John 3:10 said to Nicodemus, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"

Jesus was not playing tricks on Nicodemus. Nicodemus could have known these truths because they are given in the Hebrew Scriptures, our Old Testament.

Ezekiel 36:24-28,


Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.


Notice verse 26 in particular. There are many other passages in the Old Testament that directly relate to this truth. Jesus rightly expected that Nicodemus should have known these things, since Nicodemus was a teacher in Israel, and no doubt knew his Bible well. He just must have missed that point, just like many others to this day have done.

So in answer to woo hoo's question at Post 4,


this is the verse the church uses for the reason to baptize. Am i right in thinking "the spirit" part happens when children are old enough to accept Jesus and choose to live for Christ with the knowledge/belief that Jesus' blood covered their sin?


Yes: when children are old enough to accept Christ "and choose to live for Christ with the knowledge/belief that Jesus' blood covered their sin" this verse applies to their spiritual birth accomplished by the Holy Spirit in response to believing God's Word.

I have had a number of Roman Catholic students over the years who came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ in response to following my suggestion that they read the New Testament for themselves apart from doctrinal and denominational commentary. I have sometimes made available the Roman Catholic Bible translation by Ronald Knox, which has no specifically Roman Catholic doctrinal footnotes in it. My students or fellow workers, as the case may be, have thanked me for encouraging them to read the Bible for themselves.

One student wrote on the back of the graduation picture she gave me:


Dear Mr. Bookworm1711,

You have helped me see the light. No one could ever give me a gift more precious than that. You were always there when I needed a friend to talk to. Thank you. Love, and God Bless You, Pat

God answers prayer, and He works through His written Word. May God richly bless you and your family.

Chicken5516
January 31st, 2009, 12:47 PM
You guys have to understand tho............that it isn't as easy as you might think, to just NOT do something because you feel like it, especially when you are married, and that other person believes in something with all their heart, as strongly as you do. You won't be married long, or it will endless fighting.

My parents fought over religion for years. My mother was Catholic and my Father was a Methodist. After years of fighting, my Mother respected my Father and did not let us get baptized or go to Catholic School. Out of that respect, my Mother sent us to Sunday School at a Wesleyn Church. Later, she started to go too, and became Born Again, and it didn't matter after that.

I agree with Tall Timbers. Respect your husband, and continue to pray to God that your husbands eyes are opened.

Having your child baptised is symbolic anyways. It's for the parents, not the child. It's kind of like dedicating your child to the Lord. Continue teaching your child about Christ and the truth. The child will have to make the decision to follow Christ and be baptized when they are at the age to do so.

JMHO

DJHere
February 2nd, 2009, 01:20 PM
There are two types of baptism mentioned in the NT one is water baptism the other baptism of the Spirit. Which one places us in the body of Christ? Baptism of the Spirit:

12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. (1 Cor. 12)

Who receives baptism of the Spirit? Only those who have placed their faith in Jesus as the Scriptures say:

38Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified. (John 7)


Therefore having a baby baptized with water does nothing but make the parents feel good for it is not water baptism, but baptism of the Spirit that places us in the body of Christ.

Hootmon
February 2nd, 2009, 02:25 PM
DJ, :thumb
Agreed.

Sid
February 2nd, 2009, 04:01 PM
There are two types of baptism mentioned in the NT one is water baptism the other baptism of the Spirit.

Therefore having a baby baptized with water does nothing but make the parents feel good for it is not water baptism, but baptism of the Spirit that places us in the body of Christ.


In RCism, water baptism is a sacrament of regeneration and the equivalent of the Christian born again experience.

This is the primary reason for so many unsaved baptised Catholics insisting that they have their tickets and boarding passes on the salvation express.

Quinton
February 8th, 2009, 04:57 PM
Does Jesus say you cannot enter heaven unless you've been baptized? He says something like that in the Bible, but does He literally mean it that way?

I_love_Jesus
February 8th, 2009, 05:08 PM
I am one who takes the Bible literal, and I know which passage u speak of (though I cant quote it) But If you feel like you should be baptized or have any question of it then yes I would get baptized, so many people have different opinions about this (just like alot of other things from scripture) But I think one should take literal the words of our Lord. Also pray, God will reveal the truth :)

antitox
February 8th, 2009, 05:22 PM
Bartizing boils down to a public confession of faith. It's not the baptizing that does anything, it's about identifying with Christ. Not everyone is good at public speaking and profession, so this process allows the most shy of people to make a simple public confession by going thru that ritual.

Jesus said that whoever confesses Him before men He will confess before His Father.

Eternally
February 8th, 2009, 05:29 PM
It's Mark 16:16, but it says you are condemned if you do not believe, it doesn't say you are condemned if you do not believe and are not baptized.