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HSmomto4
April 13th, 2008, 09:31 AM
It isn't talking about the water you get dunked in, it is talking about the Holy Spirit.

Josiah
April 13th, 2008, 11:45 AM
It isn't talking about the water you get dunked in, it is talking about the Holy Spirit.

What is the "it" you're referring to? 2 Peter 3:21 is talking SPECIFICALLY about water.

Train
April 13th, 2008, 04:59 PM
They hold that you MUST be baptized to be saved. Almost every other church group in the world does NOT believe that.

Are you sure? I thought that Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, and maybe Anglicans do believe that, along with some other Protestant denominations. That's probably a super-majority of churches. Not that I would advocate doing theology democratically.


Most "Baptists" feel that if you consider Baptism necessary for salvation you're advocating WORKS-based faith.

I don't really understand the idea that Baptism is something we do. Baptism, even the way Baptists do it, is not something you do. It's something that's done to you. I mean, who ever heard of someone baptizing themselves?

lyngraphics
April 13th, 2008, 05:08 PM
The Baptist church where I was Baptized has this on their website:


When we are baptized we symbolically proclaim that we have been buried with Christ and have risen to new life.

Josiah
April 13th, 2008, 06:37 PM
Yes, that's true lyngraphics. But the attitude that it can be "scheduled" to fit it in with the "order of worship" (sometimes weeks or months down the road) is not right.

Today, we had several baptizms (7). One was my daughter. I am overjoyed that she made this decision (with our help teaching her). She's 9. Anyway, the pastor was away and the senior adult pastor was filling in. During his sermon (and before the Lord's Supper which we also had today), he mentioned that Baptism was by immersion (I agree). But he then said he doesn't get all hung up if someone wants to be sprinkled. He said it doesn't matter because it doesn't save you anyway. This is just further proof that there is a lack of understanding regarding Baptism. It REALLY bugged me that he said that.

HeIsEnough
April 13th, 2008, 07:06 PM
Is baptism more than just a "symbol"?

What kind of water can cleanse a conscience?

Josiah
April 13th, 2008, 08:45 PM
What kind of water can cleanse a conscience?

What we're failing to do in these responses is address the scriptures themselves. I'm having trouble understanding the full meaning of the passages mentioned (as well as others not mentioned).

HeIsEnough
April 13th, 2008, 09:24 PM
What we're failing to do in these responses is address the scriptures themselves. I'm having trouble understanding the full meaning of the passages mentioned (as well as others not mentioned).

We can look at the scriptures, yes. How you phrased the OP is confusing to me, like you already know what can be said. :idunno ...so I posed a question from the first Peter scripture. I'm still not exactly clear, so we can just talk?

Is it more than a symbol?

From that particular scripture, it is identified as exactly that, symbolic. Does it actually cleanse the conscience? No. What cleanses the conscience, is "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (it's accompanying effects)

Josiah
April 13th, 2008, 09:53 PM
We can look at the scriptures, yes. How you phrased the OP is confusing to me, like you already know what can be said. :idunno ...so I posed a question from the first Peter scripture. I'm still not exactly clear, so we can just talk?

Is it more than a symbol?

From that particular scripture, it is identified as exactly that, symbolic. Does it actually cleanse the conscience? No. What cleanses the conscience, is "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (it's accompanying effects)

My question is, what do you make of this verse? The symbolism the verse is referring to is that of the waters of the flood symbolizing the waters of baptism...and it says "this baptism that now saves you" meaning the literal waters of baptism (at least according to this verse). This doesn't give you any pause at all??

21 and this water (the water that came in the flood) symbolizes baptism (the water that we are baptized in (what other water can it be referring to?)) that now saves you alsoŚnot the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Obadiah
April 13th, 2008, 10:48 PM
Perhaps a more precise translation of the passage in 1 Peter would be helpful.

Not unusual for Peter, the text is difficult and at points ambiguous. But here's my attempt:

For even Christ suffered once for sins, a righteous one on behalf of unrighteous ones, in order that He, put to death in flesh but made alive in spirit, might lead you to God, in which [spirit; or, 'by whom'] He also went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, who at one time disobeyed, when God's longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few (i.e., eight) souls were saved through water, corresponding to which [water], baptism now saves us -- not the removal of dirt from flesh but an appeal of good conscience to God through Jesus Christ's resurrection.