Overturning the Reformation

[Beth O]

March 29, 1994, leading American Evangelicals and Catholics signed a joint declaration titled "Evangelicals and Catholics Together:

http://www.seekgod.ca/ect3.htm

It is easy to see the results of projects such as this. In defending the one true Word of God against Roman Catholicism I along with others have received more grief from "Protestants" than Catholics from this discussion board. I'm shocked when Hank H., Chuck Colson and other influential Evangelicals say that in Christian Essentials we are close enough and should be working together. Catholics and Evangelicals are urged to stop proselytizing each other's flocks.

http://www.thebereancall.org/node/4879 From Dave Hunt's, "A Women Rides a Beast": The theological differences between Catholics and Protestants were once considered to be so great that millions died as martyrs rather than compromise them, and their Catholic executioners were equally convinced of the importance of such differences. how have these differences been dissolved? What has happened to cause leading evangelicals to declare that Catholicism's gospel, which the Reformers denounced as heretical, is now biblical? That gospel hasn't changed. has conviction been compromised to create a huge coalition among conservatives for social and political action?

http://www.nonprofitpages.com/elm/jm_ect.htm Here is a short letter from John MacArthur on the subject.

[Widowsmyte]

[QUOTE=Beth O;23785]March 29, 1994, leading American Evangelicals and Catholics signed a joint declaration titled "Evangelicals and Catholics Together:

http://www.seekgod.ca/ect3.htm

It is easy to see the results of projects such as this. In defending the one true Word of God against Roman Catholicism I along with others have received more grief from "Protestants" than Catholics from this discussion board.

Dear Beth O:

You need not defend against the Catholics... we too are Christians (true -- from your viewpoint the room to receive us within the New Jerusalem may be nothing larger than a broom closet), but...as far as the One True Word... the last time I checked our Bible Translation has 23 books just like yours. :nod

Humbly yours --- widowsmyte

[Buzzardhut]

A total of 73 books in the Catholic and Orthodox Bibles, and 66 in the Protestant Bibles.

1- Catholic Bibles have 46 books
- Protestant Bibles have 39 books,
They do not have:
... 4 Historic Books: Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees.
... 2 Wisdom Books: Wisdom of Solomon, and Ecclesiasticus of Ben Sirach.
... 1 Prophetic Book: Baruch.

2- The New Testament: With 27 Books in all the Bibles.

[Widowsmyte]

[QUOTE=Beth O;23785]March 29, 1994, leading American Evangelicals and Catholics signed a joint declaration titled "Evangelicals and Catholics Together:



http://www.thebereancall.org/node/4879 From Dave Hunt's, "A Women Rides a Beast": The theological differences between Catholics and Protestants were once considered to be so great ...
... how have these differences been dissolved? What has happened to cause leading evangelicals to declare that Catholicism's gospel, which the Reformers denounced as heretical, is now biblical? That gospel hasn't changed.

Dear Beth O:

You are SO correct! The Gospel has not changed so---- I think you are generating the correct response [as to] what has. We've had 2000 difficult years to ponder the scriptures [as] many societies/nations have slipped by the Roman Catholic Church and into history... sometimes we get it right... and other times?... not so good.

Your denomination is less than 200 years and I think you can come up with a "short list" on where it has already wavered. As brothers & sisters in Christ we are to uphold and support each other as disciples of Christ --- not take joy in "one-up-manship" nor give condemnation to any who should stray.

Remember, in the first four chapters of Revelation John recounts how six of the seven churches had/have "fumble(d) the ball" in so many ways -and THIS has occurred within 30 years of Christ's death, resurrection & ascention!!!

And when you want to see who gets hammered by the secular and islamic world when it comes to professing Christian doctrine... you can bet it is most times the Catholics. We still ARE the front lines.

If you wish to discuss evangelism in third world nations... the number of souls brought to Christ is predominantly one particular denomination.

But all of this is worthless if the Gospel is undermined/twisted or shifted from "literal" to "allegorical". Christ is the ONLY way to salvation --- we get it.

Humbly yours ---widowsmyte:pray

[Buzzardhut]

True Christianity is over 2,000 years old starting at Pentecost.

[Beth O]

Dear Beth O:

You are SO correct! The Gospel has not changed so---- I think you are generating the correct response [as to] what has. We've had 2000 difficult years to ponder the scriptures [as] many societies/nations have slipped by the Roman Catholic Church and into history... sometimes we get it right... and other times?... not so good.
What hasn't changed is the differences between the true gospel described in the Word of God and the Catholic gospel decided by men, (Vatican).

I copied this from the John MacArthur letter I posted in the beginning.

The Means of Salvation:

Evangelical doctrine teaches that we are justified freely by grace alone.

Catholic doctrine teaches that justification is a process involving human merit. The Catholic Church has declared that ayone who believes in justification by faith alone is damed.

The Bible:

Evangelical doctrine teaches that the Bible is the only binding authority for all matters of life and godliness.

Catholic doctrine teaches that church tradition and papal authority are just as binding as the Bible.

Worship:

Evangelical doctrine teaches that our triune God alone is worthy of worship, the sole audience of our prayers, and the only object of our praise and adoration.

Catholic doctrine encourages prayers and adoration offered to Mary and other saints.


Remember, in the first four chapters of Revelation John recounts how six of the seven churches had/have "fumble(d) the ball" in so many ways -and THIS has occurred within 30 years of Christ's death, resurrection & ascention!!!


I understand quite well that there are wheat and tares in every denomination. I also believe that Catholics can be saved despite Roman Catholic doctrine.

Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Matthew 13:29-30 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

This is not about who is saved and who isn't. It's about protecting the one true gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Donncha]

The Means of Salvation:

Evangelical doctrine teaches that we are justified freely by grace alone.


The Bible doesn't say anywhere that we are justified by grace alone. For those who say it does, chapter and verse, please. And the word "alone" must be there.

James 2:

21": Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

"22": Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

"23": And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

"24": Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

"25": Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

"26": For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


The Bible:

Evangelical doctrine teaches that the Bible is the only binding authority for all matters of life and godliness.


Where does the Bible say that it is the only binding authority for all matters of life and godliness?


Worship:

Evangelical doctrine teaches that our triune God alone is worthy of worship, the sole audience of our prayers, and the only object of our praise and adoration.


Where does the Bible say this?

[Beth O]

The Bible doesn't say anywhere that we are justified by grace alone. For those who say it does, chapter and verse, please. And the word "alone" must be there.


Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

You are playing word games with me if you say I can only find a verse with the word "alone" in it. I'm sure you understand the English language is not as simple as that. Salvation is a free gift from God. If we say it is from our own works we don't have a high view of God. We boast. Once saved, we show that our faith is genuine by our good works.

James 2:

21": Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

"22": Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

"23": And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

"24": Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

This is where Abraham was saved, when he believed.
Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

His good works afterwards showed outwardly his genuine faith. Btw God is my Father, not Abraham.


"25": Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

"26": For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I agree that someone that has been saved through faith in Jesus Christ, will be born of the Spirit, (Born again). A person born again will produce good fruit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Quote:
The Bible:

Evangelical doctrine teaches that the Bible is the only binding authority for all matters of life and godliness.
Where does the Bible say that it is the only binding authority for all matters of life and godliness?

The Bible is God breathed. The only truth we can trust. We cannot trust fully in things written by man.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Galatians 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

1 Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


Quote:
Worship:

Evangelical doctrine teaches that our triune God alone is worthy of worship, the sole audience of our prayers, and the only object of our praise and adoration.
Where does the Bible say this?

I'll just start with this one. The first and second commandment.

Exodus 20:1-5 And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

[Donncha]

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

You are playing word games with me if you say I can only find a verse with the word "alone" in it. I'm sure you understand the English language is not as simple as that. Salvation is a free gift from God. If we say it is from our own works we don't have a high view of God. We boast. Once saved, we show that our faith is genuine by our good works.

I have asked you to post the scriptural verses that teach salvation by grace alone. You have failed to do so, and the reason is because Scripture nowhere teaches that. In some sections, the Bible states we are saved by grace, but it does not say we are saved by grace alone, which is a totally different concept.

However, that is not the only section that mentions how we are saved. A person cannot just ignore the other sections of the Bible without ignoring the teaching of God Himself, Who inspired all of Sacred Scripture.

Nor does Scripture teach that we are saved by faith alone. That, too, is an error. The only time the words "faith alone" appear in the Bible is in the epistle of Saint James, and it is a direct refutation of Protestant oral, manmade tradition.

See James 2.

17": Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

"18": Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

"19": Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

"20": But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

"21": Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

"22": Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

"23": And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

"24": Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Thus, works are necessary for salvation, because faith is necessary for salvation (ordinarily). And without works, faith cannot save.

The teaching of the Catholic Church and the Bible is that we are saved by grace AND by faith AND by hope AND by baptism AND by the other things the Bible clearly teaches we are saved by. Nowhere does the Bible teach that we are saved by faith alone. Adding the word "alone" changes the meaning of the Bible and contradicts several sections of it.



Salvation through grace alone and/or faith alone contradicts the following passages.


See Romans 8:

"24": For we are SAVED by HOPE: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?


See also I Peter 3:

"21": The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM doth also now SAVE us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


In both those passages, the words "SAVE" or "SAVED BY" appear very clearly, but neither passage contains the words "grace alone" or "faith alone." In fact, they don't even contain the words "grace" or "faith."

We are not saved by grace alone and/or faith alone, and the Bible does not teach those concepts anywhere. Anyone who teaches those things is adding a concept to the Bible by adding the word "alone" and is therefore teaching something contrary to Sacred Scripture, which is exactly what Martin Luther did when he added the word "alone" to his German translation of the epistle to the Romans. It is an historical fact that he did this, which he admitted in writing.

Evangelical doctrine teaches that our triune God alone is worthy of worship, the sole audience of our prayers, and the only object of our praise and adoration.

While it is true that God is the sole object of our adoration, it is not true that He is the sole object of our praise. Nor does the Bible teach that He is the sole audience of our prayers.


See I Corinthians 4.

"5": Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

"2": Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.


See also Luke 1:

"48": For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.


See also II Corinthians:

"16": But thanks be to God, which put the same earnest care into the heart of Titus for you.

"17": For indeed he accepted the exhortation; but being more forward, of his own accord he went unto you.

"18": And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is in the gospel throughout all the churches;


See also Romans 13:

"3": For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:


See also I Peter:

"13": Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;

"14": Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.


See also Proverbs 27:

"1": Boast not thyself of to morrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth.

"2: Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.


Proverbs 31:

"28": Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.

"29": Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.

"30": Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.

"31": Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates
"2": Let another man praise thee[/B][/U], and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.

There are many more examples.

[funmudder]

The Bible doesn't say anywhere that we are justified by grace alone. For those who say it does, chapter and verse, please. And the word "alone" must be there.



Where does the Bible say this?

1. Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
2. Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
3. Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
4. Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
5. Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
6. Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
7. Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
8. Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
9. Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
10. Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
11. Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast."
12. Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

Again, works/Law is contrasted with faith repeatedly and we are told that we are not justified by works in any way. Therefore, we are made right with God by faith, not by faith and our works; hence, faith alone.