Guy4God
October 25th, 2007, 03:14 PM
Ok, so I am reading Faith Undone and I am about 3 chapters in, and the author is laying the foundation for the leaders of the movement (Drucker, Buford, Mclaren, Hybells, Warren, Pagitt, and on and on)...one question comes to mind that I need some input on...
(this is a serious question, but I do not really want to see a lot of arguing, as this is an eternal soul/damnation issue...ok?)
I know that there really is a mixed bag here and of course we cannot judge anyone's salvation (although there are some clear criteria for doing so IMO, and many here agree both openly and secretly), but those of you who have actually read, heard, witnessed the EC speakers and videos, etc. are whom I am directing this to...do you guys think that the leaders of this movement are just deceived and misled, or interpreting Scripture wrong, or does anyone think that some of these people are actually agents of Satan sent to bring damnable heresies into the Church? The New Testament warns of this latter group quite specifically...
II Peter 2...
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
Jude 1:12-13
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
There are others that speak of this same thing...Galatians 1:6-9 is a good one too.
Anywho, what I am trying to get at is do you think that there are actual workers of iniquity involved in this movement and definitely attempting to sow heresy and steal sheep, or is it just a misinterpretation of the Gospel and God will just work it out as people seek Him for the Truth? The more I read and see, the more I think it is true apostasy, if not THE Apostasy we are warned of in II Thessalonians 2 that precipitates the Rapture and the coming of the Man of Sin.
Any thoughts? Oh, also, another question: This movement does seem pretty bad so I am wondering where the whole "not judging someone's salvation" really fits in here? I mean, if Brian McLaren says that the Cross is a myth, that it never really happened, then that is heresy in my book and I would most definitely call him on it and question his salvation publically...Paul made no bones at all about naming names and calling out people destined for destruction...so how do we really reconcile that today? Are these EC folk going to wax worse and worse that we will not really being wrong in juding them at some point? :scratch
(this is a serious question, but I do not really want to see a lot of arguing, as this is an eternal soul/damnation issue...ok?)
I know that there really is a mixed bag here and of course we cannot judge anyone's salvation (although there are some clear criteria for doing so IMO, and many here agree both openly and secretly), but those of you who have actually read, heard, witnessed the EC speakers and videos, etc. are whom I am directing this to...do you guys think that the leaders of this movement are just deceived and misled, or interpreting Scripture wrong, or does anyone think that some of these people are actually agents of Satan sent to bring damnable heresies into the Church? The New Testament warns of this latter group quite specifically...
II Peter 2...
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
Jude 1:12-13
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
There are others that speak of this same thing...Galatians 1:6-9 is a good one too.
Anywho, what I am trying to get at is do you think that there are actual workers of iniquity involved in this movement and definitely attempting to sow heresy and steal sheep, or is it just a misinterpretation of the Gospel and God will just work it out as people seek Him for the Truth? The more I read and see, the more I think it is true apostasy, if not THE Apostasy we are warned of in II Thessalonians 2 that precipitates the Rapture and the coming of the Man of Sin.
Any thoughts? Oh, also, another question: This movement does seem pretty bad so I am wondering where the whole "not judging someone's salvation" really fits in here? I mean, if Brian McLaren says that the Cross is a myth, that it never really happened, then that is heresy in my book and I would most definitely call him on it and question his salvation publically...Paul made no bones at all about naming names and calling out people destined for destruction...so how do we really reconcile that today? Are these EC folk going to wax worse and worse that we will not really being wrong in juding them at some point? :scratch