Problem with Translating Hebrews 3:16

[Enlightened]

I ran across a "problem verse" in Hebrews that seems to be translated incorrectly. It concerns those Israelites that rebelled during their wandering in the wilderness.

Here's the verse in a few translations:

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. [KJV]

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? [NKJV]

16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? [NASB]

16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? [NIV]

So who rebelled? All of the Israelites, as in the NKJV, NASB, NIV? Or not all of them, as in the KJV?

[PrinceSomeday]

Good question.

Basically, if you break it down, it is asking a question...

"howbeit not all..."

If you look at it a bit, you get the gist of the old King James English way of saying things. The translator is basically asking a retorical question in reverse...if you undo the whole question, you get the result which the other tanslations are saying.

Also, I suggest you do a word study on that phrase in the Blue Letter Bible

"howbeit"
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G235&Version=kjv

"not"
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3756&Version=kjv

You should get the point.

To summarize, when teaching to folks, especially children, who speak modern day American English, you might as well teach from a Chinese Bible and get as much accomplished as teaching from a King James Bible.

One of the reasons I refuse to use KJV in teaching children. We do not speak THAT LANGUAGE.:doh

[Wildcat81]

I just PMed you this, but I'll paste it here, too.

Nearly as I can tell, it's the KJV that has it wrong. Notice first that the KJV is the only one that hasn't cast the sentence as a question. That's significant. The verse starts with an interrogative pronoun - "Who?" "Which?" or "What?" depending on the context.

So the first clause should be "For who, when they had heard, rebelled?"

As for the second clause, the second word is a negative particle, ou. In questions in Greek, just as in English, you can frame the question so as to expect either a positive or a negative answer. Greek uses its two negative particles - ou and me (mu-eta, pronounced "may") - for this purpose. For example, you might say "All aren't prophets, are they?" In that case, you've framed the question so that you clearly expect the answer to be "No." Greek uses me for that.

On the other hand, you might say "Wasn't it everyone who came out of Egypt with Moses?" In which case you expect the answer to be "yes." For that, Greek uses ou.

So, to sum it up, both clauses should be in the form of a question. The second should, in translation, be cast in such a manner that it expects a positive answer.

I'd translate it like this: "For who, when they had heard, rebelled? Wasn't it all those who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?"

[Buzzardhut]

Basically, the murmuring parents, including Moses, were forbidden to enter the promised land.
Their children were allowed to enter, lead by Joshua.

[Buzzardhut]

I just PMed you this, but I'll paste it here, too.

Nearly as I can tell, it's the KJV that has it wrong.
Be careful about setting yourself up as judge and jury on Gods Word.
Jesus will judge us by His Word at judgment.

[Hootmon]

Be careful about setting yourself up as judge and jury on Gods Word.Does that admonishment apply to versions other than the KJV?

[Wildcat81]

'Course not. It's the KJV that's God's Word. Dincha know?

And to Buzzardhut:

I'm not "setting myself up as judge and jury on God's Word." What I am doing is submitting the King James Version to examination based on basic principles of Greek grammar. The verse is structured grammatically as a pair of questions. The KJV text does not have it as such. It follows, therefore, that the KJV translation is incorrect. Not, to be sure, an altogether uncommon occurrence.

[LaMontre]

KJV
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

ALT
Heb 3:16 For who having heard rebelled? _But_ it was not all the ones having come out of Egypt through Moses, was it?

ASV
Heb 3:17 And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?

BBE
Heb 3:17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? was it not with those who did evil, who came to their deaths in the waste land?

Darby
Heb 3:17 And with whom was he wroth forty years? Was it not with those who had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

LITV
Heb 3:17 But with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with the ones sinning, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?

The implication, no matter which version you read, is that some fell in the wilderness and some did not. Them that sinned were not allowed to enter, and Moses was included in that number, but not for the same sins. Joshua enetred and was of that same generation that fell, so it is clear that the KJV simply plainly states what is implied, which in my opinion, is "better" and certainly more understandable when it comes to getting the point.

[LaMontre]

I found some additional support for the "not all" contention:

1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.