View Full Version : Big Bubba - The Holidays Threads Merged
July 14th, 2009, 12:30 PM
Well, I already was rebuked by iSong's the other day. For posting a website on "Two-house Theory", as well "Hebrew Roots".
Do you understand why these are heretical, cultish things that are not allowed here? If you did, I don't believe you'd be continuing this argument. Have you done the study that was asked of you?
I'm just totally interested, why Christians would celebrate a pagan holiday.
The angels sang in Heaven when the Lord Who created the universe humbled Himself to be born into our fallen filth as a human baby - for us, who do not deserve it. The awe of it astounded Heaven. Were they celebrating wrongly? The three wise men who brought gifts, were they celebrating wrongly?
The early Christians who met on Sunday to celebrate the day of our Lord's resurrection, were they celebrating wrongly?
No one is talking about worshipping a tree or Ashteroth. For me, I don't do any of the Christmas stuff, but I don't have children. I'm talking about people who love one day a year to especially praise and worship the Lord Who was born and resurrected in our world to give us salvation. That is in our hearts. Who are you to judge?
"Therefore let no one sit in judgment on you in matters of food and drink, or with regard to a feast day or a New Moon or a Sabbath.
"Such [things] are only the shadow of things that are to come, and they have only a symbolic value. But the reality (the substance, the solid fact of what is foreshadowed, the body of it) belongs to Christ." Colossians 2:16-17
Why do you put yourself - and all of us, Gentile and Jewish believers here - under the Mosaic Law? We have the body - Jesus - of which the Law is just a shadow, a symbol.
The Bible has a beginning and an end, it teaches progressive truth. Read it that way. We did not come to Jesus for Him to point us backward. The OT points us forward to Jesus. He is the end, the fulfillment of the Law for us. What we could not do, He did perfectly, and it is attributed to all of us who are in Him.
The cultish things you are reading will not tell you that. That's why I so strongly urge you, on the Word of God, to run from them.
I don't think Jesus, would want us to celebrate Pagan traditions.
No one is celebrating pagan traditions. The wedding ring is a pagan tradition, yet Christians have sanctified it and made it their own. Money has pagan symbols on it, yet we use it to survive and to bless Christian ministries with our donations. We need to use discernment here.
Go read 1 Kings 18. They had to choose between, God, or Baal. So what your doing when it comes to Easter, is God, or Ashteroth.
We have chosen God through Jesus Christ. Already done.
We can debate this back and forth, but why is it when I start to speak of the pagan traditions of Easter and Christmas. The nest gets stirred and people get defensive?
And after about a million pages of this thread, you are saying nothing new that we haven't heard before and rejected (I'm speaking on behalf of those who disagree with you.) We are not defensive. We are pointing out that you are judging in an unrighteous manner. Read Colossians 2:16-17 again. We are secure, but it's not good for you to disobey the Word of God.
I as a Christian am not juding, not one of you. When I'm out on the streets witnessing to people, then after I go through the Law of God (The Ten Commandments), and they are guilty of them. Some will say that I am judging them. But this is a first from fellow Christians, that I've been told I'm judging people.
Your analogy fails. And yes, you are judging. Read Colossians 2:16-17 yet again. :candle
July 14th, 2009, 12:46 PM
Well, I already was rebuked by iSong's the other day. For posting a website on "Two-house Theory", as well "Hebrew Roots". I'm just totally interested, why Christians would celebrate a pagan holiday. I don't think Jesus, would want us to celebrate Pagan traditions. Go read 1 Kings 18. They had to choose between, God, or Baal. So what your doing when it comes to Easter, is God, or Ashteroth. We can debate this back and forth, but why is it when I start to speak of the pagan traditions of Easter and Christmas. The nest gets stirred and people get defensive? I as a Christian am not juding, not one of you. When I'm out on the streets witnessing to people, then after I go through the Law of God (The Ten Commandments), and they are guilty of them. Some will say that I am judging them. But this is a first from fellow Christians, that I've been told I'm judging people. Joy, can you tell me though, what Passover represents? And how Jesus was prophesied, when the Hebrews had the first passover, which happened in Moses' time?
I love you as a dear brother, but the bolded line is offensive to me to everyone who holds the resurrection of Christ as something wonderful to celebrate. That is why there is much contention in this thread. I DO NOT celebrate pagan holidays. I will honor Christ's birth death an ressurection in June if I wanted to. As Paul writes, one brother may esteem one day over another and vice versa... Romans 14.
To the sentence I underlined, I could go over what Passover represents all day long, I love it!
You didn't answer my question. Regarding iSong's post.
Did you know that the "Church", the body of Christ was a mystery hidden in God from before the foundation of the world? There is no mention of the Church in the OT. The laws, the feasts, the ordinances were not for Gentile believers.
I posted this in another thread but I'll post it again:
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
We are a new man. A new creation. The Church, hidden from the sons of men in times past, revealed to us now:
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
I'll say it again as has been said before, there is NOTHING WRONG with studying the OT and how everything points to Christ, but you can not look down or condescend someone who does not do those things as expressly commanded by Paul. By telling them they are celebrating pagan rituals, it's hurtful and does not edify the body. Everything has pagan ties if you look hard enough. Wedding rings, aloe plants, trees, etc.
I will get back to you on the Passover as time isn't allowing me to do that now, so stay tuned. I'll leave with this:
Rev. 2:9 - I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Now don't be angry with me or brissled for posting this verse. I KNOW that you KNOW that you are not a Jew (correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you had said that you were not in another verse), but we have to be very very careful brother. Very careful. We ARE the Church, the body of Christ, we are no longer under the Law of Moses (or the Laws given by God to the nation of Israel in the OT), we are under the Law of Christ.
If you celebrate or keep feasts according to the OT, where does it stop? How can you pick and choose what to keep and NOT to keep, are you going to start keeping the dietary laws? Will you start keeping the Sabbath too? Or start reading how the word "Jesus" is actually pagan too and by simply saying it you are calling demons?
Do you see how that can spiral out of control? It's how people can become ensnared into the whole HRM. One thing leads to another and another and before you know it, you are WORKING for your salvation!
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
July 14th, 2009, 12:55 PM
I suggest that those who are so bothered about when and why these particular holidays are celebrated start new holidays. Put them on non objectionable days, far from pagan ritual dates, and celebrate His Birth and Death and Resurrection then. Of course some will find fault, along with the JW's, that we celebrate anything memorial. :ohno
July 14th, 2009, 01:00 PM
[groan] You said it!
July 14th, 2009, 01:05 PM
we shouldn't be allowed to breathe when we pray, because pagans breathe when they worship too
July 14th, 2009, 01:06 PM
we shouldn't be allowed to breathe when we pray, because pagans breathe when they worship too
They do??! :panic :panic
July 14th, 2009, 01:14 PM
I suggest that those who are so bothered about when and why these particular holidays are celebrated start new holidays. Put them on non objectionable days, far from pagan ritual dates, and celebrate His Birth and Death and Resurrection then. Of course some will find fault, along with the JW's, that we celebrate anything memorial. :ohnoMy point exactly! I don't think ANYONE is being judged by Our Lord if they celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25th because ultimately, it's about the heart, not the date.
But I, in my spirit, am offended with grouping the Birth of My Lord with traditions that are so blatently against Him. That is just me. It might not be you. To me, Our Lord is so much better than that, don't ya see? It's my personal feelings and my choice. That's why I stated in one of my earlier posts that if anyone is uncomfortable with these celebrations, then search it out for yourself!
I have committed myself to celebrating Christs Birth EVERY SINGLE DAY OF MY LIFE along with HIS death and RESURRECTION. I don't need a special day to do it.
As far as the quote where I stated, "for lack of knowledge, my people perish."
This was referring to Israel when they allowed the pagan traditions to meld with their own. Their children lost more and more of the truth with each generation. It is very important that, as we celebrate, we cling to all the truths and pass them down as best we can. We can't let truth get lost in a myriad of other traditions. If you're honest, you can see this erosion. Again, it is up to each individual and it is about the heart. I'm sure there are many ways to celebrate and each individual can customize the way in which they do. But it is also important to keep in mind, the legacy we leave for our children in the next generation. Does this make sense or am I still offending people?
House of Light
July 14th, 2009, 01:21 PM
I disagree. We do NOT support the pagan influence. We over-rode their holidays with our holy days.
As a Christian, my kids (now in their 20's) knew/know Jesus was the reason for the season of Christmas! They also know He was probably born in September. So what? :idunno People celebrate birthdays on different days all the time!
Can you tell me those still-lost folks, who don't know Jesus, worship their Christmas tree or Santa?
I do believe with them seeing manger scenes and ad's from churches about Jesus' birth, it's much better than what they're being fed - which is bad - or nothing.
A tiny seed is planted for the Holy Spirit to water.
You said it. "OUR holy days." they are man's(not God's) which makes them pagan in nature. God did declare his holy days....we have since set them aside.
If you look through the OT, in Chronicals and Kings.....Jehovah NEVER accepts something pagan turned over to him. We can't have it both ways....holding on to old man's traditions and at the same time telling God that our heart is good. Our hearts are truly never good!
I look at the story of when all the the livestock and goods of the Amalakites were to be destroyed....and they saved the "best" livestock, and when questioned said..."Oh...these are for God." The Lord demanded that they clean the land of all the pagan things....and they saved the "best" under the name of Jehovah. Bad idea. God has set his 'holy days' aside. He deems what is holy and not.
And yes....people do worship Santa and the tree and the presents and whatever else. They do so...when they declare that "this is the birthday of the Lord'....and then precede to put upmost importance on the appearance of that day...the tree...the gifts.....and whatever else takes place before. MOST people do not worship Jesus at all on that day.
July 14th, 2009, 01:25 PM
Evangelist, I understand what you're trying to say but I have to respectfully disagree with you. The majority of non-believers don't even know about pagan worship in it's definition, they don't know the history of Christmas or Easter as pagan holidays...lol, most non-believers although they insert Santa into their traditions...when asked what Christmas is celebrated for, will STILL tell you it's to celebrate the birth of Christ. I think you're giving non-believers too much credit to know the history of where Christmas or the Christmas tree originated from or that a "sun-rise" service is associated with worshipping a "sun god". You're projecting your own education and assuming that the majority of non-believers know that these holidays were traditionally pagan holidays. On top of that, the whole reason Christians began celebrating these holidays...Christmas and Easter WAS to try to counteract the pagan worship and instead claimed that these were the days that we would celebrate Christ's birth, death and resurrection....I'd say our Christian values made more of an impact than the pagans did.....if you don't believe me, go out into the street downtown and just randomly ask 200 people why Christmas is celebrated (it's purpose) or why Easter is celebrated......you put out alot of educational words but I bet you dollars to donuts that the averge "joe shmoe" still ties Christmas to Christ's birth and Easter to His death and resurrection.
I'm trying to be nice but there's no need for :soapbox here:hug
I agree, Christina--also, remember how we have the names of the days of week--they too, are pagan in nature.
Evangelist, I do, see and understand your point, and can see 'both sides of the fence' here.
July 14th, 2009, 01:28 PM
Read 1 Corinthians 8. Idols are not real. It's okay to eat the meat sacrificed to them. God is not displeased. It's not okay if our liberty to do so causes a weaker brother to stumble. That's the New Testament concern.
Let's use verses from the New Testament to support our views. Remember -
JESUS CHANGED EVERYTHING !!:yeah :yeah
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