Big Bubba - The Holidays Threads Merged

[watching]

Jesus was crucified on Passover, buried on Unleavened Bread and arose on First Fruits..
First Fruits is what we think of as Ressurection Sunday...First Fruits was on the first of the week which was Sunday..So I think it is correct to celebrate Easter on Sunday.. Now the name Easter is pagan..we should be calling it Ressurection Sunday or First Fruits..

[antsinmypants]

I dunno if this info helps or hurts any, the Russian and Eastern orthodox are celebrating Easter week this week (as of yesterday).

Passover was starting saturday evening before last, and ends today. I had no idea until the Russian speaking 'faction' of my German integration course mentioned it today... Somehow I missed out on that part of history where when the RCC and EO split occurred that the EO kept the original-ish Passover/Easter date, and the RCC took the stand that it shouldn't be near the time of Passover... :rolleyes

Anyway.. just thought it was interesting myself.

[Tio-Peregrino]

Okay, here it goes.

It started out as a discussion with my husband's mom yesterday. She thinks that we should celebrate Easter. We have no problem with this, however it is when we celebrate Easter that got all our shirts bundled into a knot.

She knows there is the passover and how Jesus was killed during that week and rose from the grave on the day of Easter. She also understands that prior to Jesus' death and resurrection there was a pagan holiday called Easter, and that he just to happened to rise from the grave on that day.

What she doesn't understand (or want to admit) is that pagan Easter is based on another calendar, and passover hasn't happened yet for this year, and neither has the day of Jesus' resurrection. I'd think, if Jesus was a Jew, you'd think if someone were to celebrate his death and resurrection it should be based on the Jewish calendar.

I consider his mom a very book smart person, but when it comes to religion, it just seems like it all goes out the window!

Anyone else having a similar problem? Am I wrong?

Why not celebrate it twice?

The 14th of Nisan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartodecimanism)is when our Lord was crucified...there's no disputing that, I believe. We were invited to an Easter lunch...and we partook even though we spoke about how Passover wasn't to be for another month practically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartodecimanism

I don't say this in any way arrogantly, but some will listen and some won't regarding these things. When people get the glazed over look I'll change the subject and just praise God that we both are giving praise for the same event--regardless. Every time we take communion we are praising God for that last passover seder that Jesus was a part of...and the fact that He is our Passover (1 Corinthians 5:7).

[Tio-Peregrino]

Satan has always tried to destroy Christ. In USA, every spring, when Easter is celebrated, the distractions are abundant and the focus is not on Jesus. Oh, He gets a 'mention' of course. Churches regularly sponsor egg rolls, egg hunts, Easter breakfasts, and typically cancel evening services on Easter. Dh & I honor Christ's resurrection on the day referred to as Easter, of course, but we also celebrate Passover and speak of how Jesus is our Passover Lamb. This is a good lesson for our grandchildren, and the focus is on JESUS, not on Easter bunnies, etc. :rolleyes

He's also done a great job in destroying missions to the Jews...not that this in and of itself would be a great witness. But you never know. I think this issue was one that helped create a wedge between the early church (primarily Jewish) and the generations to come.

[Tio-Peregrino]

I'm starting to feel a little better now. Personally we don't believe in celebrating Easter as a separate holiday, and that Christmas is approx. when Jesus was conceived, but not actually given birth to.

It's likely that Jesus was born on Sukkot...which is one of the Fall Festivals. So, December 25th isn't really "approximate." I don't see anything in Scripture that states we are to celebrate it. So I have no issue with Christmas. I don't celebrate Saturnalia...I celebrate the birth of my Messiah.


We would tell her about that too, but we can only lead her in baby steps. I'm glad we're not the only ones who believe this.

Yes, have grace with her. I don't see it to be important enough to ruffle anyone's feathers.


She also said at the communion when Jesus said "Do this in remembrance of me." thing and said that's why we must celebrate Easter. To me, it's just not even in the same context.

Encourage her to read the Gospel accounts...He said this while they were drinking the cups of the Passover Seder, not an Easter meal.

He was crucified on the 14th of the Hebrew month Nisan. So if she wants to be specific... And "communion" is like the fourth cup which is drunk at the Seder...

http://www.amfi.org/passover.htm


There's just a lot of things she does and says that off. I guess the majority of people who claim to be Christians wouldn't notice them. I have to contain myself at times, I want to tell her the truth so badly, but if I get her angry once then she'll never listen. Actually she turns almost viper like when anything challenges her version of Christianity. The basics are there, just represented wrong sometimes, ya know?

on another topic, I did run across a cute saying the other day,
"JESUS IS BACK! QUICK! HIDE THE EGGS!"

That is cute.

It sounds to me that she knows the truth. She has a relationship with Jesus--that's most important. Perhaps you can share with her more later...the AMFI site is very balanced.

[Tio-Peregrino]

I've had similar experiences with many in the so called "Hebrew Roots" movement. The teachings in that movement are very legalistic - many believing the entire Mosaic Law continues and that we should all live effectively as Orthodox Jews, except for accepting Christ as the Messiah. The problem is that teaching ignores significant portions of NT teachings in the epistles regarding the fulfillment of the law by Christ, the purpose of the law as a tudor until christ, the law being a shadow of things to come, etc.

Regards,

Brian

I disagree with the Hebrews Roots movement on many, many, many an issue. I don't see this to be going back under the Law. I suppose I can see how some many consider it that. But then...Paul would be teaching us to go back under the Law. And I don't think he was doing that.


Clean out the old yeast so that you may be a new batch of dough – you are, in fact, without yeast. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. So then, let us celebrate the festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of vice and evil, but with the bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

Is Paul saying we must go back under the Law? No.

Is it going back under the Law to note that the Catholic Church combined this celebration with a pagan celebration? No, it's information--similar to Saturnalia and Christmas. Is it to say that anyone who celebrates Christmas is celebrating Saturnalia...and anyone who celebrates Easter is also celebrating a pagan holiday? No. What's at the center? Is is Jesus Christ/Yehoshua Ha'Mashiach? If Jesus is at the center, and people are not mocking those who celebate the other days I see no issue.

Celebrating Jesus as our Passover (1 Corinthians 5:7)...at the actual time of Passover...how is that wrong? How is that going under the Law? Why should be celebrate it on Easter instead?

[Tio-Peregrino]

No - not all messianic synagogues and Churches. There are many in the messianic community (Jewish and Gentile) who worship with Jewish traditions but who do not believe the Mosaic law continues (other than the 10 commandments). But there are some who take a much more legalistic view of Matthew 5:17 to mean that literally the entire Torah continues because "not all was fulfilled" yet.

Most who believe this pretty quickly start talking out of both sides of their mouths.


Its hard to reconcile that view with NT scripture. For example, what purpose could there be for an ongoing levitical priesthood when we have Chirst, our high priest in the order of Melchezidek who is greater than any levitical priest?

Now you're getting into eschatological issues. There are large portions of Ezekiel that you, then, have to explain away...and that's a different thread.


Why re-create the veil in the temple separating Israel from God if Christ tore the veil giving us direct access to God through Christ?

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]I agree.


Why wear the law on our farheads (tefillan) and post it on our doorposts (Mezuzzah) if Christ has written His law in our hearts?

I can agree...and yet I don't. Many folks you and I know have the Ten Commandments posted in their home somewhere somehow. One of the passages in the Mezuzzah is the Shema, which is something Jesus routinely said and is essentially "The Golden Rule." See Matthew 22:37 -- James called it the "royal law" in James 2:8.

http://jewsforjesus.org/publications/newsletter/1994_01/mezuzah

I don't see any "going back under the Law" with having a mezuzah up. We aren't telling others they have to do it, neither do I think I'm in any way under the Law by having them up.

All Scripture is profitable, as Paul wrote to Timothy. I'm not telling anyone else they must do what I'm doing.


Why reinstitute animal sacrafics (if/when the temple is rebuilt) when Christ is are once and for all sacrifice?

Again, this is more eschatological and you must explain away quite a bit of Scripture that talks about this happening. I'll just say that these animal sacrifices in no way accomplish what has already been accomplished. But this really isn't what the thread is about.


Why subject ourselves to the Law when Christ has freed us from the Law and nailed it to the cross?

Regards,

Brian

He nailed the certificate of indebtedness conveyed in decrees to the cross...exactly. How does that mean that someone must eat shrimp...or that they must eat pork now? How does that mean that a person can't celebrate Passover when they see Jesus in the Passover? How does that mean that they can't celebrate any of the feasts with Messiah at the center of them? When someone gets legalistic, yes, that is wrong. But we've been shown grace...likewise, we need to show grace.

One of my instructors at a camp back in New York once told us that he knows that he can eat a cheeseburger now...there is no need to eat meat and cheese separately. Nevertheless, because of his upbringing it still makes him nauseated to think of eating the two together. He doesn't tell others to do as he does...and knows that in Christ he has the freedom to eat these two together. That's balance. He knows the truth, and doesn't admonish anyone to follow the Law. Nevertheless, he can continue to follow parts of the Law. And he's one of the most humble people I know. He's not trying to proselytize folks to eat in that manner. There are a number of things not kosher by those standards that he partakes in now because he knows he has that freedom.

[Robbinson]

One of my instructors at a camp back in New York once told us that he knows that he can eat a cheeseburger now...there is no need to eat meat and cheese separately. Nevertheless, because of his upbringing it still makes him nauseated to think of eating the two together. He doesn't tell others to do as he does...and knows that in Christ he has the freedom to eat these two together. That's balance. He knows the truth, and doesn't admonish anyone to follow the Law. Nevertheless, he can continue to follow parts of the Law. And he's one of the most humble people I know. He's not trying to proselytize folks to eat in that manner. There are a number of things not kosher by those standards that he partakes in now because he knows he has that freedom.

I think on this we agree. I don't see any issues with someone who chooses to follow traditions or OT scriptural instruction (e.g., dietary laws, etc.) if they are doing it because they choose to - because it makes them feel closer to God, or otherwise. IMO, the problem arises when those who do so began to believe that following these commandments are "requirements" after Christ (either for Savlation - that is admittedly a very minority view even among the most avid of messianic jews or members of the Hebrew Roots movement or for justification (the latter is a quite common position in those groups)). BTW, as a Jew who came to believe in Christ as the Messiah, I spend a fair amount of time with Messianic Jews - although I prefer to worship in a protestant congregation in large part because of a differing viewpoint on the ongoing role of the Mosaic Law after Christ.

Regards,

Brian

[Tio-Peregrino]

I think on this we agree. I don't see any issues with someone who chooses to follow traditions or OT scriptural instruction (e.g., dietary laws, etc.) if they are doing it because they choose to - because it makes them feel closer to God, or otherwise. IMO, the problem arises when those who do so began to believe that following these commandments are "requirements" after Christ (either for Savlation - that is admittedly a very minority view even among the most avid of messianic jews or members of the Hebrew Roots movement or for justification (the latter is a quite common position in those groups)). BTW, as a Jew who came to believe in Christ as the Messiah, I spend a fair amount of time with Messianic Jews - although I prefer to worship in a protestant congregation in large part because of a differing viewpoint on the ongoing role of the Mosaic Law after Christ.

Regards,

Brian

Yes, we definitely agree here.

I've heard just about every explanation about why I should follow the Law...and yes, about the justification part. One fellow told me that it's like having a yard to mow...and that we only need to mow part of it, but what does a partially mowed lawn look like to God? What does God think of us for not finishing up and mowing the rest? It was pretty deceptive thinking, and unfortunate. Seems many of these people believe that following the Law (even though they can't possibly follow all of it today) somehow is a witness to other Jews. In my time at Messianic Congregations I never saw anyone come to the Lord because of that, though. The majority of folks got into the traditions, and many got into genealogy and claimed that they were Jewish. Or, others, came from Armstrong's cult and were already certain that we are Jews (British Israelism) and that Saturday worship is a MUST. If the Messianic leader doesn't take a strong stand from the pulpit I'm afraid much can happen...and much of it is not edifying. We attend a "Sunday" congregation now, and we love it. There is no beating around the bush in regard to the Gospel...no issues with the image of the cross.

We will, of course, have to observe Tabernacles in the Millennium (Zechariah 14). But, no, we're definitely not required to celebrate the feasts now for justification or salvation. Folks can do it in their liberty in Messiah...and need to make sure that they don't think of themselves as superior, or close to God because they do this. It's a fine line.

[iSong6:3]

BTW, as a Jew who came to believe in Christ as the Messiah, I spend a fair amount of time with Messianic Jews - although I prefer to worship in a protestant congregation in large part because of a differing viewpoint on the ongoing role of the Mosaic Law after Christ.



Thank you for sharing this, this means something.

Most Jews are not won to the Lord by Messianic Jews or that movement. They are led to the Lord by Gentile Christians. This is a documented fact. Also a fact is that the vast majority of believing Jews go to churches. For the reason you mentioned.

It seems to fulfill Romans, about Gentile believers leading Jews to jealousy, imo. Not copying the Jews or pretending that they are Jews.

This is a huge issue, both for the Messianic movement and their growing identity crisis -- and also for me. (I'll stop before I get on my soap box.)