Big Bubba - The Holidays Threads Merged

[HeIsEnough]

then lets not forget to deep-six the wedding ring too.

:nod

The unhidden secret is that everything not of Jewish tradition will need 'deep-sixed' to complete the logical end to this whole subject.

[Sassy Granny]

If we start excavating the archeological & historical origins of this day or that, this tradition or that, then lets not forget to deep-six the wedding ring too. It's origin is shrouded in pagan tradition. :thinking

Oh yeh ... I almost forgot lipstick. It's gotta go! :doh

http://www.theoriginof.com/lipstick.html

Kathleen

[BrideOfChrist]

I wish people wouldn't make such a big to-do about the small stuff. :drama Christmas is my favorite time of the year. I even like Santa Claus and Frosty. My kids know the real reason for the season and my favorite Christmas songs are about the birth of our Savior. Luke 2 is one of my favorite passages in Scripture! But I seriously doubt that God minds if we watch and enjoy Rudolph and How the Grinch Stole Christmas. To each his own. Just because you celebrate a man-made holiday and enjoy some of the stories and characters that have evolved over the years from imaginative minds doesn't make you a pagan. :)

[FrankBeMe]

Wow, I was unaware of that. I appreciate you brining that to my attention. Thankfully I live pretty far away for Knoxville and Memphis. The area I live in still display the Ten Commandments in public places like IHOP and the county courthouse, etc. There is daily prayer in the morning at every school along with the pledge of allegiance. I will continue to pray for those lost souls, as I do every day.

So you still live in what can be recognized as the real United States?

Anyway, pagans are everywhere, you just don't know who might or might not be. Heck, Churchill was suspected of being a closet druid.

Coming from about a decade in the world, I really know too much that I wish I didn't know about that life style. But, I do and maybe my experiences can be useful to others wanting to leave that world or even go into it. Believe, it is very difficult to get out of.

One thing that could be worth trying is to remove Wicca from the US military chaplain's manual as a legit religion. Another would be to take the pentagram off grave crosses of pagans buried in Arlington National Cemetery. I'm sure that those also show up at other national cemeteries as well. It's just so wrong to see the pentagram on a head stone:

http://www.wildhunt.org/pagan_vet.jpg

There is just so much with that image.

[Faithful Servant]

I would be very naive to think that witchcraft, etc does not go on in this part of the US. However, it is not publicly displayed like it is elsewhere. Middle Tennessee is a very nice place to live. I served 8 years in the military, 4 in the Navy 4 in the Army. I can recall many times when the chaplain would pray at meal times, etc. (not in the name of Jesus Christ). The atheists would go bonkers. They were told that they could also voice their beliefs at times of prayer. They would say "Thank the US Navy for this meal, we do not believe in your God, amen." At that point in my life I was not saved, but I did believe there was a God. I know that God protected me throughout my service. I am sad that people mock God and die lost forever. That headstone made me very sad, that man proud to serve and die for his country, but too proud to serve Jesus Christ. I will continue to pray for this lost and dying world and tell everyone that crosses my path about the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you for your reply, sir and I look forward to the day we meet and worship Jesus Christ for eternity.

[DjJen]

What about that karma thing? Does those sayings....
"If you put bad things into the world, bad things come to you" & "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
does that apply to the bible or to some other false thing? or does it mean the same thing?
:idunno

[Tio-Peregrino]

Hi Tio, I must apologize, you are correct, my sarcasm was inappropriate and I thank you for calling me on it. Also, my goal is certainly not to belittle anyone, I'm sorry if anyone took it that way.

:hug


Regarding what you teach, I believe because Messiah wasn't born on Dec. 25th,

And you don't know whether He was really born on Tabernacles either...but you have promoted this...and His being conceived on Hannukah. Hannukah is not in Leviticus 23...neither is Simchat Torah. So both are man-made. Even Jesus evidently celebrated Hannukah...a man-made holiday.

I teach what Scripture teaches...liberty in Christ.


and since the trees, lights, tinsel and all the other traditions don't seem to point to Christ

They may not point to Him according to you. I grew up with an angel on the top of the tree. When we put the angel on the top we thought of the many angels who told the shepherds about the birth of the Lord. I remember that we had a snow-globe that played O Little Town of Bethlehem, and I distinctly remember the reflection of all our Christmas lights on that snow-globe. I remember thinking as a child how bright the angelic host must have been when they spoke to the shepherds--somewhat similar to the brightness of the lights when all other lights were turned off. The tinsel made the lights even seem more reflective and glimmering. So although you may not think it points to Christ it does to me, and I can only imagine if I had such thoughts as a child that many also make such connections.


, the celebrating and condoning there of is a bit to cozy with the world.

This I can't agree with because you are taking away from the heart...you are looking primarily at the outward appearance and neglecting that which is happening in the hearts of others who find meaning in these traditions. We are in the world...not of it, as Christians. I'm sure there very well may be many people in the world who celebrate Christmas and the meaning of it passes over them each year. Again, I think of my father-in-law and how my wife and her sisters and mother went down the road you are on...and how bad a witness that was to him. I'm not saying what you are doing is a bad witness...but I do know how he was affected by what they did.

There are many things we do in the world that those who do not have the Spirit also do. We simply cannot live in convents and monasteries. We are called to spread the Gospel.


I feel that Christmas as presented as "Christian" is comprised of lies and compromise. This is just my honest opinion.

Compromise? Lies? That can be your opinion, but I would encourage you to look at how you defend it. Your use of Scriptures have been out of context to convey what you feel is correct.

Please explain what is compromised by celebrating Christmas?

What lies are being promoted?


Do I work on Sundays? No, but I would have no problem doing so.

So you have "set apart" Sunday by your own admission. You have (from your own point of view) made it "holy." Right?


God set aside the Sabbath for rest, not Sunday.

And nothing in the New Testament commands us to follow the Sabbath Law as stipulated in the Mosaic Law. You certainly have the freedom in Messiah to observe it as you wish, but Paul was pretty clear that Legalizers were in the wrong in Galatians.

I've not stated that the Sabbath is any day but Saturday, incidentally. But I refuse to belittle people who go to Church on Sundays as many Messianics do. If I've ever seen people full of leaven it is Messianics who think they're holier because they observe what they can of the Mosaic Law (and much of it cannot even be observed as it was originally intended).


Gifts? Nothing wrong with giving a gift, that's totally different than gift exchanges, especially on a large scale like Christmas. The only place I see that in the Bible is in Rev 11:10 where gifts are sent to one another, same activity but different occasions.

So your problems with giving gifts on the 25th of December is specifically because of that day. You have no problem with gift-giving on December 24th or December 26th?


Bad exegesis, maybe you missed the areas in bold. The point was that Jeroboam made his own holy day as a substitute for God's holy day, set it at a time "even in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel:" I believe this was done out of fear and greed.

Yes, bad exegesis. What Jeroboam did still doesn't line up with with Christmas. Jeroboam had a religion of his own...it wasn't merely a holy day...it was a full system. December 25th is no holier than any other day, by the way. We celebrate the event throughout the season. There are no idols being worshipped as in Jeroboam's system. Christmas is not a counterfeit of anything. Which is why I don't see anything is being compromised, nor are any lies being promoted as you allege.

I haven't missed anything you've bolded...but I won't only read what you post. I like to read the Scriptures in context.


What do I think is sinful about Christmas, to me it's based on traditions of man from many sources but not the Bible, and has become an orgy of materialism. You asked, this is just my opinion.

And again you are focusing on the outward appearance. God looks at the heart. Certainly the angels are watching us and how we do things, but your opinion is not based on the heart. There are numerous things we do in this life which have their source outside the Scriptures. This is why I have mentioned more than once the difference between what is amoral as opposed that which is immoral.

An orgy of materialism? Why don't you try to change that and put the focus on the real gift that God gave us? I'm not saying, nor have I ever said this gift was given on December 25th. But I think what many Messianics do is actually counter-productive in the big picture.


Quote Tio;
"Where in the New Testament are we told to celebrate the feasts of Leviticus 23"

Though I believe that keeping the feasts were common to the first century church, I don't see a clear commandment to do so but rather statements like this-

1Co 5:7 Cleanse out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

When I attended a Messianic Congregation I would also point to this passage. It's an excellent image for what Paul was discussing in the passage. And I think that celebrating Passover is a blessing for Christians. I prefer celebrating it with Jesus as the center rather than celebrating Easter. But I would never claim that people should do one over the other. Romans 14 comes into play here.


5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.


An unanswered question; Tio asked "How many other "ways of the heathen" do you take part in? Cable television? Fast food? I trust you don't drive a Ford". Just for the record, no tv, fast food only as last resort, and no, I don't drive a Ford, how did you know? (Why did you ask???)

There are multiple other things I am sure you partake in that is of the world. That was my only point.

Oh, Henry Ford was anti-Semitic.

[Tio-Peregrino]

What about that karma thing? Does those sayings....
"If you put bad things into the world, bad things come to you" & "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
does that apply to the bible or to some other false thing? or does it mean the same thing?
:idunno

Reaping what you sow is a general truth. See Galatians 6:7-9, for example. However Karma, as believed in Hinduism and Buddhism has other issues to it. So no Karma is not Biblical as there is no Scriptural support for reincarnation.

[Tio-Peregrino]

If we start excavating the archeological & historical origins of this day or that, this tradition or that, then lets not forget to deep-six the wedding ring too. It's origin is shrouded in pagan tradition. :thinking

http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/rings.html

http://jesus-messiah.com/html/wedding_rings.html

And then there that's scriptural admonition from Romans:

14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. :yeah

And http://www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-traditions.html gives us a wee bit more thought on that subject.

Kathleen

:nod:thumb

[DjJen]

Yeah that makes sense!
Tio-P thanks so much for all of your insight! You really know a lot and I have learned so much form you. :hat
I might have a lot of questions in the future. I really dont understand bible verses and the meanings behind a lot of them. I do understand what Jesus did for us and what God did and is doing though.