Big Bubba - The Holidays Threads Merged

[Buzzardhut]

We can wrap it as a present for Galactus.

It might clog his combustion chambers.

[CharlotteMc]

Thank you Tio P and HeIsEnough. I learn something new every day from reading your posts.
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[Tio-Peregrino]

Thank you Tio P and HeIsEnough. I learn something new every day from reading your posts.
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Hey there, CharlotteMc!

It's such a blessing and responsibility to know this. Thank you! I used to attend a Messianic Congregation, so I have done a lot of reading on this particular issue. It's interesting to see how the Lord utilizes our different experiences to edify and encourage one another. What a joy it is to be one in Him....part of such a great family....better sisters and brothers I could never have asked or hoped for.:yeah

[HeIsEnough]

Thank you Tio P and HeIsEnough. I learn something new every day from reading your posts.
:thumb

Tio is very good, isn't he. :nod

[lavender]

You'll need to explain that one (even though you stated that you don't want to debate this point). Telos is telos.

The Greek word telos and its English equivalent "end" can refer either to termination (as in "the end of the matter") or to purpose (as in "to the end that"). Paul believed that Jesus Christ was the end of the Mosaic Law in both respects. He spoke of the Law as having a function to fulfill in history after which Jesus Christ terminated it (Matthew 7:6; Galatians 3:19, 23; cf. Mark 7:18-19; Luke 16:16; John 1:17; Acts 10:12; Romans 14:17; 1 Corinthians 8:8; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18; Galatians 4:9-11; Galatians 5:1; Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 7:12; Hebrews 9:10). Furthermore he described the purpose of the Law as bringing people to Christ (Matthew 7:7-13; Galatians 3:24; cf. Matthew 5:17).

Christ came not to terminate the law;

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

What He was saying is that you cannot be made righteous through the law. Further, if you walk in the Spirit, you will not sin and will fulfil the law;

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

When we walk in the Spirit, we transcend that which still exists, that is the law. The law ended FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS, faith in Yahshua is the only way to be righteous.



[SIZE="3"][FONT="Book Antiqua"]This doesn't mean that it's incumbent on us to follow the Mosaic Law. I know you want to use "law" alone, but that's a bit ambiguous. It's good for us to understand what law is being referred to.

I'm not sure Paul's "feeling" about the Law is particularly important...though it's interesting to see. Let's look at his application of it among the Gentiles in Corinth (this is most helpful for us in application...since you seem to be stating that we are mandated to follow the Mosaic Law...though you are separating that which cannot be separated). The Law (composed of 613 laws) is beautiful in many respects...and Paul was correct (of course) in 2 Timothy 3 to state that its useful for us. No one who has the Holy Spirit residing in them should deny this). Just because its useful doesn't mean that covenant is over us today (or have I missed my IDF service?):). None of it (specifically the Mosaic Law) is upon the Believer today. We live under the New Covenant (1 Corinthians 11:25) not the Old (Jeremiah 31:32). The application of law in Corinth also proves this...remember the man who was having sexual relations with his father's wife (1 Corinthians 5:1). Even if the fellow's father was dead according to the Mosaic Law he would be "uncovering his father's nakedness," and this was cause for stoning (Leviticus 18:7; Leviticus 20:11) according to the Law. You continue to bring up "moral law." Where in Scripture do we read that we are to follow the "moral law" within the Mosaic Code? What happened in Corinth was certainly a morality issue...and Paul judged it not according to the Mosaic Law and it's moral protocol. Otherwise, he would have told the Corinthians to stone the man...and to stone the woman.

Answer;

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. Letter of what? Spirit of what?

Is Psalms 1 relevant for us anymore?

Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Psa 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

The way I view the law is seen here;

Psa 119:35 Cause me to walk in the path of Your Commandments; for I delight in them.

Our Heavenly Father loves us enough to provide a path for us to follow, that we may prosper in Him and His ways. Notice that the path is the commandments, if we are walking in the Spirit, we walk above them, but is still below our feet. The law is a two way street, first being God's love toward us, and then through our obedience we show our love to Him. I think John put it well;

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, whenever we love God and keep His commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome.

If we as a body could only realize that the law, (God's instructions for us) exist purely for our benefit, we would be transformed into a church that might even have a (positive) influence in this wicked world instead of being an impotent social club.

enough said


Isa 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

[Buzzardhut]

Jesus did not come to terminate the law but He did fulfill it.
The law is the old school master showing us we cannot enter heaven under the law, we need a redeemer.
Jesus' burden is light because we live the law through Jesus, not of ourselves.

[Sassy Granny]

If we as a body could only realize that the law, (God's instructions for us) exist purely for our benefit, we would be transformed into a church that might even have a (positive) influence in this wicked world instead of being an impotent social club.

enough said

Lavendar, hello there ....

The church wields its greatest power when cloaked in the full armor or God, not the Law. We are not instructed to conquer or overcome the world by the Law, but by His spirit (and love). We are not commissioned to "go and tell the Law", but to give out good news by His spirit. The Law does not transform. It doesn't have the power to do that.

17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. 2 Cor 3

1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is ... " Romans 12

10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints. Eph 6

You show me your good works by the Law, and I'll show you my good works by God's power & grace in me (leaving me no room to boast). He alone renders me not only able and righteous, but purified and justified as well. In His presence, the Law pales and recedes.

26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." 1 Cor.

We, the church, will bring God the greatest glory by BEING salt & light. Obedience is key, but it's not obedience to structures and strictures, but to Him. And if the universal church were to stand up today and proclaim their adherence to the Law, it would not be a fraction so powerful as if it were to bend its knee in repentance.

God bless you, Lavendar. I know you mean well, but do be careful about asking us to be enslaved to that from which we've been set free. Kathleen

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Rom 8

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. Rom 8

[lavender]

Hi Sassy, good to hear from you.

Quote from Sassy;
"The Law does not transform. It doesn't have the power to do that. "

You are absolutely correct, it doesn't, but that is not what I was trying to say. My point is this, that if the church understood that God's instructions (the law) are first, His love toward us, second, that they exist purely for our benefit, and lastly that if we were obedient we would be a glorious and powerful church on the earth.

The law cannot save us, never could, for it's always been by faith. Rom 4:9 It's our love and obedience to our Heavenly Father that forms us into the image of Christ. Observing man made days such as christmas and sunday and not acknowledging God's appointed times is not obedience and therefore detrimental to the Body of Christ. Christmas is so clearly the sin of Jeroboam, but emotions, which are easily manipulated by satan, will keep so many good people from seeing the truth.



Isa 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

[Sassy Granny]

It's our love and obedience to our Heavenly Father that forms us into the image of Christ. Observing man made days such as christmas and sunday and not acknowledging God's appointed times is not obedience and therefore detrimental to the Body of Christ.

OK Lavendar ... let me see if I have this correct. :scratch

Being observant (a mandate for the Jews but never asked of the church) is what demonstrates the body's (the church) obedience?

What does it mean to observe the Sabbath? Was the Church ever told to do that? What about those customary meetings on the first day of the week held by the early Church?

I think where we've got a disconnect is in the decidedly different directives for Israel (the Jewish people) and the Church (the bride of Christ). It's complicated by the fact that in the economy you express (being observant) Christ died in vain. If I insist on observing The Law (and you can't just pick & choose which portion of that Law you want to observe) it has become the shackle to sin & death from which He set us free; there is no new covenant.

Katheen

18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” Galatians 2

[icebear]

does the Bible mention believers observing the sabbath after Christ's rising?