Big Bubba - The Holidays Threads Merged

[Sassy Granny]

thank God for grace, eh?


:faint

Amen!

:woo

[FunMudder]

I'm preoccupied with truth.

Actually, it seems you are preoccupied with being overly legalistic with the Old Testament where we were under the law, instead of the New Testament. Many scriptures have been given to you that plainly state we are not under the law, but in the age of grace.

This is the same attitude the Pharisees had. Knowing the laws but not recognizing the power there of, wanting to cling to oppressive do's and don'ts instead of accepting Christ freed us from that bondage.

Colossians 2:16
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

[Tio-Peregrino]

In context;

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So, in context it says something different than "Think not that I am come to destroy the law"? And the heaven and earth thing, what does that reeeally mean?

In context, Jesus was telling the Jews that His interpretation of the Law was not as radical as they were being led to believe it was. Since the time of Ezra there had been a fence that was built around the 613 laws which encompass the Law of Moses. Ezra began doing this in an attempt to make sure that Israel would never have to go into slavery again under Assyrian or Babylonian control, etc. The fence has become a monstrosity, and was markedly different than originally intended at the time of Jesus in the first century, too. So He was allaying concerns.

Furthermore, we must look at the phrase He uses...not merely LAW, as you repeat (which shows me this is the thrust of it in your mind). He actually uses the phrase: the Law or the Prophets. He wasn't referring to the Mosaic Law alone as many usually want to infer (which is usually why I ask people what exactly they're trying to set forth in using the Scripture). Most routinely use it to prop up their desire to eat kosher, to wear tzit-tzit, to observe the Sabbath, etc. This phrase "the Law and the Prophets" encompasses the whole Old Testament as we know it today. See the usage in Matthew 7:12; Matthew 11:13; Matthew 22:40; Luke 16:16; John 1:45; Acts 13:15; 28:23; Romans 3:21, too. Simply view John 10:34.


Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’?

This is not a reference to anything in the Pentateuch, or Five Books of Moses, or the Mosaic Covenant, or the 613 laws that make up that covenant, it is a reference to what Jews call "The Writings," Psalm 82:6.

And He didn't destroy them...He interpreted them correctly for those who were still under that covenant. Obviously, Believers today are not under the Mosaic Covenant, though. Paul is clear about this, as is Jesus at that final Passover meal. Paul is also clear that the Scriptures (when he was writing he was referring to the Old Testament) are good for us to read, to be edified by, etc., in 2 Timothy 3. But, as is obvious in the case with the man who was sleeping with his father's wife in 1 Corinthians 5 Paul does not use the Mosaic Law as protocol...he judges according to the New Covenant.


Let's be clear,

Certainly.


the sacrificial law has been superseded by a better covenant through the blood of Christ, the book of Hebrews is very clear on that.

Here you are dividing the Law again...you have stated previously that the moral law is still in effect--and you believe that this moral law is part of the Mosaic Law. James is clear in the second chapter of his epistle that the Law cannot be divided (James 2:10)...you break one part of it and all of it has been broken. There is a continuity to it. We are not under this law. We are under the New Covenant. Some laws within it are the same...similar laws doesn't mean it's the same. I pointed out that it was wrong for Cain to kill Abel...and that this took place many years before the Mosaic Law was put into effect.


Furthermore, we are not under the letter of the law but rather the spirit. It's not only still a sin to commit adultery, "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. " Mat 5:28 How can this be so hard to comprehend?

It's not at all hard to comprehend. I have responded to you before on this, as well: similar laws does not make it the same covenant.


Isa 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

Again, you use this passage. Why do you continue to bring up this judgement on Jerusalem? What's your point? Are you trying to say that I am promoting a "refuge of lies"? If so, contextually and exegetically your rendering of this is wrong. I'm actually part of a ministry that is working toward fixing bomb shelters in Israel, and in doing so also witnessing to the sabras (Israelis born in the Land, for those who don't know the term) who may have to utilize these shelters. I'm all for the salvation of Israel, and making sure there are as few Jews as possible who will have to endure what takes place in Isaiah 28:14-29. I want as many Jews to be Believers in Yehoshua/Yeshua/Jesus Christ so that they are raptured and don't have to go through the Tribulation.

[Tio-Peregrino]

Incorrect Tio, I'm preoccupied with truth.

I made that statement because you stated (getting back to this origin of this thread) that there is some interconnectedness between idols in Jeremiah and Christmas trees...or celebrating Christmas. I still don't see how you come to that conclusion (while being balanced in the Word). If you're not preoccupied with the letter of the Law then you would seemingly understand the heart issue--that people can celebrate on or about the date of December 25th without any thought of Saturnalia or some other pagan holiday. But you're not looking at what's in the heart of people who celebrate this. If you're interested in truth then you should welcome this discussion, and you should be extremely clear about your position, and point to Scripture that clearly backs up your view.


However, I'm responding to this post to ask you if you are trying to goad me into answering on a subject I've been warned about?

Why would I do that? I responded because I have had some experience with folks who use the Sabbath as a feather in their cap, so to say. I'm sure I may be a touch jaded on the subject since the experience with these individuals has been generally negative. While attending a Messianic Congregation I never approved of their looking down their noses at "Sunday worshippers." Since we who believe in Jesus are part of the same body I think it's wrong to be arrogant toward another part of the body. I attended church on Sunday for years before going to a Messianic Congregation, and I never worshipped the Sun or partook in anything pagan.

In any event, I hadn't seen HeIsEnough's post before responding to you. Once I saw his post about dropping the Sabbath conversation then I quit. I'm certainly not goading you. All I'm asking for is clear interpretation and explanation. And so again we see:


Isa 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

:scratch

What's your point? I think this is the third time I've asked...

[His Bride]

Today is August 25th. Christmas is in four months. Also my birthday and my youngest daughter's birthday. While we don't celebrate as the world dictates, we do enjoy the festivities. We know that Jesus wasn't born on that day, but we kind of feel the specialness of sharing that day with Him. If we cannot celebrate with joy the God of the universe and His Son, our Saviour, then we are a sad lot.

[PickensSlim]

My 2 cents.
1. To fulfill the law means to correctly interpret it - Jewish idiom.
2. It was completed at the cross.
3. Does Jewish law apply to gentiles? Was it ever necessary for gentile salvation?
4. Does the Noahide law still apply?

Slim

[Tio-Peregrino]

My 2 cents.
1. To fulfill the law means to correctly interpret it - Jewish idiom.
2. It was completed at the cross.
3. Does Jewish law apply to gentiles? Was it ever necessary for gentile salvation?
4. Does the Noahide law still apply?

Slim

Good thoughts, Slim! And a great question about the Noahic Covenant or Noahide Law. Noah, of course, existed before the differentiation was made between Jew and Gentile. Is that why you bring it up?

I would say that we live under the New Covenant law (1 Corinthians 11:25). This covenant was made with Israel (Jeremiah 31:32)...so you are correct that it is not our law, per se. God made no covenant with Gentiles with the exception of the Noahic and Adamic (yet this was before the time of Abraham). The covenants belong to Israel...and this is an important thing to remember when we look at the Olive Tree in Romans 11. The place of blessing is rooted in the Jewish covenants, and we Gentiles are a wild olive tree that have been grafted in among the natural branches. This doesn't mean we become Israel because the tree doesn't signify Israel, as some have believed. When we read that passage we see that the tree belongs to Israel...not that the tree is Israel. In fact, Paul shows there is an ability to tell the difference between natural and wild branches because he gives a warning to Gentile Christians not to boast above the natural branches. Christendom has done this, and there will come a day when the rapture occurs and the Gentiles left behind will certainly recognize the loss of that place of blessing, IMHO. Anyhow...this thread isn't about the Olive Tree alone, so I'll move on.

I believe Paul is pretty clear in Galatians that faith has always been the integral issue. He reaches back to Abraham for this purpose, I believe, when writing to the Galatians. In chapter 5 he tells them that if they think they're better by getting circumcized then they might as well cut more than just the foreskin...and go all the way. Paul gets a little vulgar (especially when reading the Koine Greek), but he makes his point clearly.

Gotta go...but will respond later regarding the Noahic Covenant...

Blessings...

[HeIsEnough]

Today is August 25th. Christmas is in four months. Also my birthday and my youngest daughter's birthday. While we don't celebrate as the world dictates, we do enjoy the festivities. We know that Jesus wasn't born on that day, but we kind of feel the specialness of sharing that day with Him. If we cannot celebrate with joy the God of the universe and His Son, our Saviour, then we are a sad lot.

:nod

Me too.

[HeIsEnough]

3. Does Jewish law apply to gentiles? Was it ever necessary for gentile salvation?


No. The question was settled once and for all at the Council in Jerusalem. It was put up for consideration by some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees. They said "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses." The apostles and elders met to consider this question, and then Peter said: "Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." Then the whole council formed a letter meant to be read by us. It said: "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell." And then the matter was settled forever.

[lavender]

Quote:
Isa 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

Quote from Tio:
What's your point? I think this is the third time I've asked...


Sorry Tio for failing to address your question. I believe Isa 28:17 has a future and far reaching fulfilment, and it's coming soon to a location near you (and me). Also, I'm sorry for being such a poor communicator, from my point of view, I have let you and the others here down.