View Full Version : Big Bubba - The Holidays Threads Merged
August 27th, 2008, 09:21 PM
A double fulfillment? Do you have other prophecies in Scripture that have been fulfilled twice? From my understanding, prophecies have one particular fulfillment. Otherwise, for example, there could be another virgin birth in Bethlehem...no?
Double fulfillment? How about Joel's prophecy fulfillment spoken of in Acts 2:16? Don't you think there's going to be another, larger fulfillment? Or how about the abomination of desolation set up by Antiocus Epiphanes and then by Titus in 70AD? Double fulfillments or not, my question is, when do you think Isa 28:17 was fulfilled? I couldn't find anywhere in the Bible that referred to such an event.
August 27th, 2008, 11:36 PM
Double fulfillment? How about Joel's prophecy fulfillment spoken of in Acts 2:16?
That's a good example...thanks for bringing it up. I'll defer to Dr. Ice, and Dr. Fruchtenbaum on this one as I'm short on time:
Many believe that at least part of Joel 2 was fulfilled in Acts 2 (http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=286)since it is quoted by Peter. However, a close look at Peter's reference to Joel is not that of fulfillment (the word "fulfill" is not used in Acts 2), but one of similarity ("this is that," i.e., like that in Acts 2:16) between the working of God's Spirit in the future-as noted in Joel-and what the Holy Spirit was doing in starting the church.
Peter quotes extensively from Joel 2:28-32 in his Pentecost sermon (2:17-21). In Acts 2:17, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Peter changes the phrase "after this" in Joel 2:28 to "in the last days," underscoring the fact that his citation of the Joel passage was not being fulfilled in his day, but must await the future time of the tribulation. "Last Days," as used by Peter refers to the tribulation (cf. Deut. 4:30; 31:29; Isa. 2:2; Jer. 23:20; 30:24; 48:47; Ezek. 38:16; Dan. 2:28; 10:14; Micah 4:1). After Israel experiences the material blessings described in Joel 2:21-27, they will experience the spiritual blessings noted in 2:28-29.
What does Joel describe in 2:28-32? Joel describes the activity of God's Spirit at work in events surrounding a yet future second coming of Christ. Thus, Peter's point is that of similarity between what the Holy Spirit will do in the future with the nation of Israel and what He was doing almost 2,000 years ago. The pouring out of the Spirit upon all flesh, in the context of the Joel passage, refers to the conversion of Israel during the future tribulation period as supported by the subsequent reference to the various echelons of Jewish society, "and your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions" (Joel 2:28). These are categories of individuals who have been excluded in the past as vehicles of God's prophetic inspiration. But in the future a time will come when all aspects of Israel's society will be impacted by the Spirit. The context clearly limits the scope to Israel. Such a limitation means the passage is not describing what will happen within the Gentile believing community. As opposed to a mere trickle, at this time in the future, God will pour out His Spirit upon Israel. The exact meaning of the phrase relates to a time when God will provide maximum revelation through all echelons of Israel's society. Proverbs 1:23 says, "I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you." The second line explains more precisely what is meant by the first line.
Further support can be seen from Joel 2:18-21 and in a parallel passage (Zech. 12:10-14). Had Israel believed on Jesus as their Messiah in Peter's day then it would have likely taken place in conjunction with the supernatural events described in Joel. Instead, the ingathering in Acts 2 was the birth of the church and explains why not one of the physical signs and wonders in the sky occurred on the Day of Pentecost. All of these things, including a pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon the Jewish people leading to their conversion, will occur at the end of the tribulation in conjunction with Christ's return. However, the Holy Spirit, and not wine, was the cause of events on the Day of Pentecost. The tribulation will be a period of new revelation from God.
Jewish Quotation of The Scriptures
Arnold Fruchtenbaum claims that the New Testament writers (all were Jewish) quote the Old Testament in the common Jewish way in the first century. "They often gave a spiritual meaning or a new application to an Old Testament text without denying that what the original said literally did or will happen." Fruchtenbaum cites four ways the New Testament quotes from the old and notes that Matthew 2 contains an example of all four uses. The four uses are 1) a literal Old Testament prophecy that is literally fulfill in the New Testament, 2) a literal fulfillment of a type made by the New Testament writer from the Old Testament,  3) a literal fulfillment in the New Testament of an application from the Old Testament,  4) a summary of what the prophets actually said in the Old Testament, which is then said to be fulfilled literally in the New Testament. 
Fruchtenbaum cites Peter's quotation in Acts 2 of Joel 2 as corresponding to his third category and notes the following:
This example is found in Matthew 2:17-18 which is a quotation of Jeremiah 31:15. In the original context, Jeremiah is speaking of an event soon to come as the Babylonian Captivity begins. As the Jewish young men were being taken into captivity, they went by the town of Ramah. Not too far from Ramah is where Rachel was buried and she was the symbol of Jewish motherhood. As the young men were marched toward Babylon, the Jewish mothers of Ramah came out weeping for sons they will never see again. Jeremiah pictured the scene as Rachel weeping for her children. This is the literal meaning of Jeremiah 31:15. The New Testament cannot change or reinterpret what this verse means in that context, nor does it try to do so. In this category, there is a New Testament event that has one point of similarity with the Old Testament event. The verse is quoted as an application. The one point of similarity between Ramah and Bethlehem is that once again Jewish mothers are weeping for sons that they will never see again and so the Old Testament passage is applied to the New Testament event. This is literal plus application. The original text may be history or prophecy. The Jeremiah quote is an example of history. An example of prophecy is in Acts 2:16-21 which quotes Joel 2:28-32. Virtually nothing that happened in Acts 2 is predicted in Joel 2. Joel was speaking of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the nation of Israel in the last days. However, there was one point of similarity, an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, resulting in unusual manifestations. Acts 2 does not change or reinterpret Joel 2, nor does it deny that Joel 2 will have a literal fulfillment when the Holy Spirit will be poured out on the whole nation of Israel. It is simply applying it to a New Testament event because of one point of similarity.
Don't you think there's going to be another, larger fulfillment?
I do believe it will literally be fulfilled, yes.
Or how about the abomination of desolation set up by Antiocus Epiphanes and then by Titus in 70AD?
I'm kind of hazy on my eschatological memory with that one. I'll have to consider that one a little further. I don't seem to remember Titus putting up an abomination of desolation, though. Also, Titus survived the destruction of Jerusalem. When reading Daniel 9:27 I seem to recall that the person depicted there literally destroyed...as Paul writes about in 2 Thessalonians 2:8.
Double fulfillments or not, my question is, when do you think Isa 28:17 was fulfilled? I couldn't find anywhere in the Bible that referred to such an event.
Isaiah 28:17 is yet to be fulfilled...in the context we read a number of phrases that point to the Day of the Lord...which is to come upon the earth at the time of the Tribulation. If memory serves (I don't have my Bible handy) "His awesome work," or "His task," "His strange work" is referenced. This is the Day of the Lord. The covenant mentioned is that of Daniel 9:27...the one Israel signs with the Antichrist. And this passage will be fulfilled in the military campaign that comes into Israel from the North. The terminology of a flood is seen as a military attack. I'm not sure if there is a passage in Revelation that aligns with this, but wouldn't be surprised.
August 27th, 2008, 11:38 PM
I don't consider myself to be a young Believer, however, I have learned so much from this thread. Thank you Tio.
September 1st, 2008, 11:46 AM
September 16th, 2008, 06:04 AM
I'm wondering what kind of things all of us believer's out there typically do for halloween. I generally have never done anything special, just keep the porch light off and go to bed early. What's really annoying is that during halloween week, our town has a halloween parade. It's only a few blocks from where we live and the noise and celebrations really make me feel uncomfortable, it's like they are celebrating Satan and all things evil. It's funny, I never heard of having a halloween parade until I moved to this town.
Several years ago, for halloween night, I decided to hand out candy with tract's. I'm thinking I may do it again this year, but am not sure if it is appropriate for a Christian participate in halloween, even if you are putting tracts and candy in the kids bags. In any event, what kind of tract's would be appropriate for a young child for halloween? It's been awile since I've browsed the tract's at our local bible store and I want something thats going to have an impact. I think the last time I found some type of tracts that were "cartoonish", hoping it would attract their attention more.
When I was young, my parents let me and my sister go trick or treating, even though we were a christian family and my dad was a pastor. I think they let us do that so we wouldn't feel left out, and because they felt it was harmless as long as we did'nt dress up as something evil. My feeling today about trick or treating is the same as my parents, although I still feel somewhat uncomfortable about it all, which makes me think that uneasy feeling is God talking to me.
So what do you do for halloween? Does your town have "halloween parades? Do you feel uncomforable like I do about participating in halloween, regardless of how innocent it seems?
September 16th, 2008, 06:18 AM
halloween does not bother me.
passing out candy with tracts is fine.
September 16th, 2008, 06:20 AM
I buy candy and pass out to trick 'r' treaters that come calling. That's about the extent of any participation in this seemingly silly celebration.
September 16th, 2008, 06:31 AM
I don't do anything. The lights are out and I'm watching tv upstairs.
September 16th, 2008, 06:42 AM
We don't do anything because we live in a rural area. There are no trick or treaters. When we lived in So. Cal. we did pass out candy and tracts though.
Usually my church would have a big shin dig called Hallelujah Night. We had it outside so the community could participate. It was a great way to reach out to the lost because the gospel was always clearly presented by our pastor.
Our new church here in NC hasn't done anything yet and that's fine too.
September 16th, 2008, 06:43 AM
We don't do anything now simply because we live in the country and no one comes calling. When our kids were little, the church would enlist families to participate in handing out candy. The kids always loved it. We would load them up and take them trick or treating to the houses of people in the church family. Around here, they have started calling everything a "Fall Festival", "Fall Carnival", etc. I never saw anything wrong with Halloween, but we weren't worshiping the devil (just making it fun for the kids), so it never occurred to me that anything was wrong with it... :idunno
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