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View Full Version : Genesis 4:7 "Sin lieth at the door."


messenger
November 9th, 2007, 12:17 PM
Genesis 4:7 "Sin lieth at the door." In my opinion, the correct rendering of this word (sin), is as "Young's Literal Translation" states: "sin offering" " (YLT Genesis 4:7 Is there not, if thou dost well, acceptance? and if thou dost not well, at the opening a sin-offering is crouching, and unto thee its desire, and thou rulest over it.') pointing to Jesus Christ Who offered Himself for our sin in our place! and now having been raised from the dead, He's waiting, desiring, and receiving all that will come to him by faith as a lamb crouching at the door to men's hearts.

The Amplfied version states: "And its desire; (the same as in Genesis 3:16 "and thy desire shall be to thy husband") is for you". Jesus Christ's desire is for us insomuch that he has subjected Himself to us because He loves us that much, that we might receive Him. Only in that sense, we have that authority in time over Him meaning that we have been given liberty to receive the Lamb of God or to not receive Him. But His desire remains for us to accept Him and receive Him. If we have a problem thinking of Jesus as giving an unbelieving sinner authority over Himself(and remember Cain was an unbelieving sinner), just think of the Babe in the manger and again, the cross where sinful men just like you and me crucified the Lord from heaven to whom He willfully submitted in order to be obedient to His Father, then He would pray to the Father; "forgive them for they know not what they do" (Consider 2 Cor. 8:9; For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

He is both Lion and Lamb. He is our King, our Lord, our Savior and the Master of our souls, but to the unbelieving sinner, He is the Lamb of God stretched out upon the doorposts of our lives and faith in His shed blood declares God's righteousness for the remission of our sins once for all.

The following phrase cannot mean what many Bible translations and most commentators say it means: "and thou shalt rule over him". They interpret the word "him" here to mean "sin"(insinuating, that cain might "master sin"). The question I have is: how can fallen man "rule over" or master sin? Only Jesus Christ (The sin offering) has defeated (or has "mastered") Sin and only as we are "in Christ" do we have victory over sin. It is virtually impossible for man in his Adamic (fallen) state to rule over sin, for the opposite is true, sin rules over Adam (the natural man; eg: Cain in his Adamic state).
Here are several examples from scripture:

(Romans 7:18); "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." (Romans 7:18, KJV)

(John 15:4-5); "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me . I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing ." (John 15:4-5, KJV)

(Romans 8:7-9); "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:7-9, KJV)

(Galatians 5:17); "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." (Galatians 5:17, KJV)

(2 Peter 2:14); "Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:" (2 Peter 2:14, KJV)

(Isaiah 64:6); "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6, KJV)

(Isaiah 57:12); "I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee." (Isaiah 57:12, KJV)

(Philippians 3:9); "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:" (Philippians 3:9, KJV)

(Jeremiah 13:23) "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." (Jeremiah 13:23, KJV)

(Psalm 39:5) "Behold, thou hast made my days as an handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. Selah." (Psalm 39:5, KJV)

. On the other hand as it says in (1 John 3:9) "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9, KJV)

That if we are born again, because His seed remains in us, in God's eyes, through the finished work of Christ, we cannot sin (in our position though we do sin in our experience) because in His eyes we are "in Christ", and Christ remains in us never to leave us nor forsake us (Hebrews 13:5). This is how God the Father sees us. However, when we sin, God the Holy Spirit is grieved or quenched but that is another message for another time.

BlessedinHim
November 9th, 2007, 11:23 PM
SIN
Transliteration
chatta'ah

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) sin, sinful

2) sin, sin offering

a) sin

b) condition of sin, guilt of sin

c) punishment for sin

d) sin-offering

e) purification from sins of ceremonial uncleanness

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 296
AV — sin 182, sin offering 116, punishment 3, purification for sin 2, purifying 1, sinful 1, sinner 1

LIETH
Transliteration
rabats

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to stretch oneself out, lie down, lie stretched out

a) (Qal) to lie down, lie

b) (Hiphil) to cause to lie down

1) laying (stones)

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 30
AV — lay down 15, lay 9, couch beneath 1, couched 1, misc 4

AT THE DOOR
Transliteration
pethach

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) opening, doorway, entrance

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 163
AV — door 126, entering 10, entry 8, gate 7, in 7, entrance 3, openings 1, place 1

Mitsy
November 10th, 2007, 08:01 AM
You need Context.

KJV Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

NIV Gen 4:7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

Complete Jewish Bible Gen 4:7 If you do what is good, shouldn't you hold your head up high? And if you do not what is good, sin is crouching at your door; it wants you, but you can rule over it."


Your thinking is flawed. Sin cannot be 'Sin Offering or Jesus' as your propose.

Later in the verse it is stated that 'you can rule over or master it/him'. We do not rule over Jesus but Jesus over us. It only makes sense if you see it as it is written as the word SIN. We must rule over or master SIN.

Once again you must use CONTEXT when you try to apply your interpretation.

antsinmypants
November 10th, 2007, 03:09 PM
It is Sin offering and can be translated as such.

The context is that Cain gave an incorrect offering. He could have given his first fruits, BUT he was required to give a sin offering (lamb).

here are some great charts I was able to scan from my Stone's Edition Tanakh that list various sacrifices, when they are offered, where and what level they are considered.

Sacrifices 1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/antsy/sacrifices/Sacrifices1.gif)
Sacrifices 2
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/antsy/sacrifices/Sacrifices2.gif)- For Personal sin or Idolatry (self worship would qualify), a female kid goat or lamb were offered. This is/was an obligatory sacrifice.
Sacrifices 3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/antsy/sacrifices/Sacrifices3.gif)
Sacrifices 4 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/antsy/sacrifices/Sacrifices4.gif)
Sacrifices 5 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/antsy/sacrifices/Sacrifices5.gif)