PrinceSomeday
November 22nd, 2007, 12:51 PM
O I get it!
:thinking Because Binny Hinn uses...
-Music, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Guitars, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Drums, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Pianos, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Stages, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Nice clothing, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Decorations on the stage, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Microphones, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Video cameras, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Reading the Bible, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Prayiing for healing, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Raising our hands, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Praising the Lord with our words, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Showing emotions, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
I watched these videos and found the people who were trying to debunk Binny Hinn and Co. (who are obviously frauds) by attacking many of the "tools" that they use to be a equally silly!:hehee
Yes those guys (Hinn and Co.) are fakes but there are others who use all of the above listed items who are real. So what makes a fake or a real Christian is their fruit, not their tools. I am deeply concerned when somebody attempts to discredit a tool rather than the person.:ohno
The folks in this video made a slip near the end. They defended the reformation. I personally believe that today's reformation theology is dangerously legalistic and heretical as well. Did you notice that NONE of the people attacking Hinn were smiling? My or my! :doh They sure make me want to be like them...NOT! :fear
Every "reformer" I know is an unhappy, sour, grumpy, complaining person. They see the "devil in everything of the world" and would be happy if we all went back to the Puritanism of the early church in America. I have family members TRAPPED in this theological thinking and I am sad for them.:ohno
Knowing Jesus is FREEDOM! Following Jesus is JOY! PEACE! :yeah:yeah I understand David dancing before the Tabernacle of the Lord! I can not thank Him enough or express my joy enough. Through music, I worship Him. Through reading the Bible, I worship Him. Through everything I do, I worship Him. Yes, I use my mind, but I don't stop there.
Yes, Binny Hinn is a fraud, but is Rheinard Bonke? Is Bill Johnson? Is Heidi Baker? (Be carful before you judge these people. Look at the fruit of their lives.):pray
Yes, I am deeply concerned about frauds in the church, but they are not just "Signs and Wonders" people. The key is the fruit of their lives, not whether they use any of the "tools" elaborated above.
Well, there're my thoughts. I'm sure others would take issue with one or another of them, but the purpose of this Board is to be able to discuss our thoughts. So bring them on. What are yours about these videos?:hat
joe ross
November 22nd, 2007, 01:10 PM
O I get it!
Because Binny Hinn uses...
-Music, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Guitars, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Drums, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Pianos, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Stages, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Nice clothing, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Decorations on the stage, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Microphones, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Video cameras, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Reading the Bible, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Prayiing for healing, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Raising our hands, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Praising the Lord with our words, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
-Showing emotions, then we can not or we would be practicing apostacy!
:scratch
I watched these videos and found the people who were trying to debunk Binny Hinn and Co. (who are obviously frauds) by attacking many of the "tools" that they use to be a equally silly!
sure Roger Oakland is a fraud NOT!
i will gladly takes sides with Roger Oakland and all the other brethern making this film any day ...
what are you so angrey about??:scratch
did you just fast foward and not watch it ,,or is it spoke to your own heart and exposed something there..
well you say----Yes, Binny Hinn is a fraud, but is Rheinard Bonke? Is Bill Johnson? Is Heidi Baker? (Be carful before you judge these people. Look at the fruit of their lives.)
and i say ill look into these people and get back to you on them ,and if they dont line up with sound scripture "ill expose them".....:wave
PrinceSomeday
November 22nd, 2007, 02:22 PM
what are you so angrey about??
I'm not angry and am sorry if you interpreted my post as anything but trying to give my honest input and observations about the videos.
By the way, I watched them both...it took a long time, a lot of slow booring parts which tend to tempt a person to fast forward. Yes I fast forward through a few parts. Didn't miss anything though.:)
Here, I'll do some of your research for you. :hat
Here is the quote from Bill Johnson's Church (What we believe):
There is only one true God who is the eternal King, Creator and Redeemer of all that is. He is perfectly holy, just, loving and truthful. He has revealed Himself to be eternally self- existent - one being in three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
The Bible to be the inspired and only infallible and authoritative Word of God.
Humankind was created in the image of God to know and enjoy Him, yet we willfully rejected the Lordship and glory of God for which we were intended. Because of this, sickness, death and judgment entered the world and now creation experiences the effects and consequences of sin.
The Lord Jesus Christ, the one and only Son of God, was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin, Mary, and is God's Anointed One, empowered by the Holy Spirit to inaugurate God's Kingdom on earth. He was crucified for our sins, died, was buried, resurrected and ascended into heaven, and is now alive today, in the presence of God the Father and in His people. He is "true God" and "true man."
We are saved by God's grace, through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Anyone can be restored to fellowship with God through repenting, believing and receiving Jesus as their Savior and Lord. The Holy Spirit, convicts, regenerates, justifies, and adopts us as we enter the Kingdom of God as His sons and daughters.
In the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, by whose indwelling the Christian is enabled to live holy and minister super-naturally. The baptism of the Holy Spirit according to Acts 1:4-8 and 2:4 is poured out on believers that they might have power to be witnesses.
The victorious redemptive work of Christ on the cross provides freedom from the power of the enemy * sin, lies, sickness and torment.
The Church consists of all who put their faith in Jesus Christ. He gave His church the ordinances of Baptism and Communion. The Church exists to carry on the ministry of Jesus Christ and further advance His kingdom by undoing the works of the enemy, preaching and living the good news of God's love, discipling the nations, baptizing and teaching them to love and obey God.
In the ever increasing government of God and in the Blessed Hope, which is the glorious visible return of our Lord Jesus Christ for His overcoming bride * His church. Heaven and hell are real places. There will be a resurrection of the saved and the lost, the one to everlasting life and the other to everlasting death. https://www.ibethel.org/churchlife/index.php?page=19
(You will notice that there are links to other ministries on his church's website, some I do not agree with, but that does not change Bill Johnson's own life and fruit. I can personally testify that he is not a fraud as defined by these videos. (I do not attend his church because I live too far away, but if I lived in Redding, California, I wouldn't hesitate to become a member.)
Here is the Bio on Reinhard Bonnke:
Evangelist Reinhard Bonnke is known for his Great Gospel Crusades throughout the continent of Africa. The son of a pastor, Reinhard gave his life to the Lord at age nine, and heard the call to the African mission field before he was even a teenager. After attending Bible college in Wales, he became a pastor in Germany for seven years and then went on to start mission work in Africa. It was there, in the small mountain kingdom of Lesotho, that God placed upon his heart the vision of ‘the continent of Africa, washed in the precious Blood of Jesus’ – an entire continent, from Cape Town to Cairo and from Dakar to Djibouti that needed to be reached and to hear the proclamation of the signs-following Gospel.
He began holding meetings in a tent that accommodated just 800 people, but, as attendance steadily increased, larger and larger tents had to be purchased, until finally, in 1984, he commissioned the construction of the world’s largest mobile structure – a tent capable of seating 34,000 people! Soon, attendance at his meetings even exceeded the capacity of this huge structure, and he began open-air Gospel Campaigns with an initial gathering of over 150,000 people! Since then, he has conducted city-wide meetings across the continent with as many as 1,600,000 people attending a single gathering using towering sound systems that can be heard for miles.
It has now been some thirty years since Reinhard Bonnke founded the international ministry of Christ for all Nations (CfaN), which currently has offices in the United States, Canada, Germany, United Kingdom, Africa, Singapore, Australia, Hong Kong and South America.
Since the start of the new millennium, through a host of major events in Africa and other parts of the world and aimed at seeing 100,000,000 souls record a decision for Jesus Christ in this decade, some 44 million have responded to the Gospel call.
As part of the discipleship-training program, 190,000,000 copies of CfaN literature have been published in 143 languages and printed in 54 countries. Millions of books have been printed and freely ‘seeded’ in nations around the world. All this is in addition to the ‘Reinhard Bonnke School of Fire,’ an online, self-study course, aimed at inspiring others to Holy Spirit Evangelism and leading to either a certificate or university credits. Other soul-winning projects are in development, including one that is aimed at inspiring the next generation of evangelists also to reach the unreached, to further the Kingdom, and to see the Gospel message proclaimed throughout the world.
Reinhard Bonnke is also recognized for hosting ‘Fire Conferences’ in many different countries of the world, events that are aimed at equipping church leaders and workers for evangelism… for distributing over 90,000,000 copies of Minus to Plus, a profound salvation message, to homes around the world and for seeking every opportunity to reach and to save the lost. He is known as one with a burning passion for the Gospel, a vision for Africa and a message for the world.http://us.cfan.org/Reinhard-Bonnke-Biography.aspx
Notice how many people have professed a faith in Jesus Christ because of the Holy Spirit's work through this man?
Here is the Bio on Heidi Baker:
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:3
The BakersRolland and Heidi Baker began Iris Ministries, Inc., an interdenominational mission, in 1980 and have been missionaries for the past twenty-five years. They were both ordained as ministers in 1985 after completing their BA and MA degrees at Southern California College in Biblical Studies and Church Leadership. Rolland is a third-generation missionary born and raised in China and Taiwan. He was greatly influenced by his grandfather, H.A. Baker, who wrote "Visions Beyond the Veil," an account of the extended visions of heaven and hell that children received in his remote orphanage in southwest China two generations ago.
Heidi was powerfully called to the mission field when she was sixteen and living on an Indian reservation as an American Field Service student. She was led to the Lord by a Navajo preacher. Several months later she was taken up in a vision for several hours and heard the Lord speak to her and tell her to be a minister and a missionary to Africa, Asia and England. When she returned home to Laguna Beach, California, she began ministering at every opportunity and leading short-term mission teams. Rolland and Heidi met at a small charismatic church in Southern California and married six months later after realizing they were united in their calling and desire to see revival among the poor and forgotten of the world.
Rolland and Heidi spent twelve years in Asia. The first six years they led Christian dance-drama crusades in Philippines, Taiwan, Indonesia, and Hong Kong. They made use of their backgrounds in creative media and the performing arts, and saw thousands come to Jesus.
After meeting Jackie Pullinger-To and working with her ministry to drug addicts in Hong Kong, however, they had a strong feeling that the Lord wanted to change the direction of their ministry. Their hearts were increasingly broken for the poor and unwanted. They wondered about their crusade converts and wanted to concentrate more on the specific daily needs of those to whom they ministered. This was a time of change. They began to plant works among the poor--first in the slums of central Jakarta, Indonesia, and then among forgotten streetsleepers and elderly in the most crowded urban area in the world, central Kowloon in Hong Kong. God was giving them his heart for the poor and abandoned.
In 1992 they left to do their PhDs in systematic theology at King's College, University of London. At the same time they planted a church among the homeless, drug addicts and alcoholics who lived on the streets in central London.
In 1995, after twenty years of praying and waiting, they arrived in Mozambique, the poorest country in the world. The government offered Iris Ministries a horribly delapidated and neglected "orphanage," and with no promised support such a project they simply said, "Yes, we'll take it!" They began with eighty children, but their hearts were broken for the lost and abandoned children still on the streets of Maputo. After many years of brutal civil war, thousands left orphaned, displaced and abandoned. The Mozambican and foreign staff of Iris Ministries began to pick up and take in these lost children. God poured down his love and provided food day by day. They grew to 320 children. They planted a church in the community and began to see hundreds turn their hearts to the Lord.
The former communist directors of the government orphanage were furious ever since the Bakers took over, since their extreme corruption and thievery had been stopped. Scheming together with an equally corrupt faction of the government, they concocted accusations and issued a legal decree to Iris Ministries forbidding prayer and worship, Christian singing, etc., and all forms of "unapproved" food and clothes distribution and medical assistance. If they and their children did not obey these new rules, they all had forty-eight hours to leave. Heidi was also told that there was a contract out on her life, and that she was not allowed back on the property. Overwhelmed and exhausted by the fight, they had to evacuate to their office in the city.
At the center the children entered the dining room, which had also been used as a church, and began singing praise and worship songs at the tops of their lungs! They were beaten and told they were not allowed to worship God! One-by-one they began to walk the twenty miles to the city office. They told Papa Rolland and Mama Aida that they would go wherever they were because they wanted to worship God! Not knowing what to do, they all cried out to God in total desperation. They had lost everything. There was no place for them to go. There was not even a pot to cook for all these children! A friend, Nelda Lawrence from the U.S. Embassy, came over with some chili and rice for the Baker family. Heidi said, "We have a very large family!" Nelda said, "No, no this is only for you and your two children." Heidi said, "We have a lot of children and the Lord said there would always be enough!" They prayed over the pots of food and told the over fifty children to sit down. Everyone ate and was full, including the Bakers!
Two other missions, hearing of the situation, offered the use of some unused buildings for three months. As the time ended the Lord graciously provided a piece of land. The children prayed and interceded with the whole staff and believed God for another miracle. Like always God came through and provided a huge circus tent and some used army tents in which the children could live. Holes were dug for toilets and everyone prayed for months for water from the earth (a well) and spiritual water from heaven (more of the Holy Spirit). God answered both prayers and provided a well with clean, fresh water, and poured his Holy Spirit out on the children in a powerful way. Through the trials all have grown stronger in the Lord. The greatest joy for the whole center is that they are now free to worship God.
The challenges of providing physically and spiritually for so many children under unspeakable conditions of poverty and evil are being met in Jesus. Time after time as discouragement and exhaustion have threatened to collapse the entire ministry effort in Mozambique, the Holy Spirit has poured out more grace and mercy on the ministry.
For example, at one point Heidi came back to the States to attend a renewal conference (being in drastic need of renewal!). She was exhausted by the work and the responsibility of over three hundred children who all called her "Mama Aida." The enemy tried everything to stop her from making the trip. It looked financially impossible, and two doctors told her she absolutely could not make the trip because she had pneumonia. Stubborn as she is, she got on the plane for the thirty-some-hour journey. Mercifully, at the start of the conference God opened up her lungs and allowed her to breath freely. Each day her strength increased. She spent many hours receiving prayer from loving people on the ministry team. It was difficult, and at the same time deeply healing to simply receive after preaching and teaching for so many years. One night she felt she was in birth pains and was groaning in intercession for the children of Mozambique. There were thousands of them coming towards her and she cried, "No, Lord, there are too many!" And she felt Jesus say, "Look into my eyes. You give them something to eat." Then he took a piece of his broken body and it became bread, and she began to give it to the children. Then again the Lord said, "Look into my eyes. You give them something to drink." He gave her a cup of the blood and the water that flowed from his side, and she gave this to the children to drink. The Lord spoke to her heart and said, "There will always be enough bread and drink, because I paid the price with my life. Don't be afraid. Only believe." She returned to Mozambique healed and strengthened.
Today Rolland and Heidi cry out for a continuation of the visitation of God experienced by the children of H.A. Baker's orphanage in China long ago. That is beginning to happen, and more testimonies are accummulating than can be communicated! May the Word of God spread in power to the remote corners of the world, and may the the poor, the crippled, the lame and the blind, people who have never before tasted the goodness of God, be drawn the King's great banquet!
Rolland and Heidi Baker[Since this background article was written, Iris Ministries has expanded to over 5,000 churches all over Mozambique and into neighboring countries. The disastrous flooding of 2000/2001 catalyzed an overwhelming hunger for the things of God in the refugee camps where we ministered, and the Gospel continues to spread like wildfire. We now care for almost 2,000 children at our centers, and our churches are taking in orphans as well. Jesus is revealing Himself through signs and wonders, visions and dreams, and we have never seen such a harvest before us. May the Lord of the harvest send us workers!] http://www.irismin.org/p/background.php
Roland and Heidi Baker spent time with the very kinds of people in these videos who are trying to expose the "Signs and Wonders" crowd. They invited them to come down to Africa and work with them side by side and the "Mr. Grumpy Pants" reformers refused.
The reason I picked these three is that they are linked to the "evil" Signs and Wonders crowd that these videos are debunking. The problem with the video, as I pointed out, is lumping everybody into the "bad" column if they practice or say anything about signs and wonders.
Jesus confronted the Pharisees who accused him of being of the devil when He performed signs and wonders. He warned them to be careful not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit with such accusations. He charged them to judged his actions by the fruit. That is the template I use when analyzing any Christian.:wave
joe ross
November 22nd, 2007, 03:30 PM
Jesus confronted the Pharisees who accused him of being of the devil when He performed signs and wonders. He warned them to be careful not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit with such accusations. He charged them to judged his actions by the fruit. That is the template I use when analyzing any Christian.
well i see signs and wonders as somthing we should distance ourselfs from..look what the bible says....Mat 12:38 ¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
well im done here :hat
joe ross
November 22nd, 2007, 03:37 PM
. They have each experienced supernatural (Angelic included) interventions and have witnessed miracles that are real and documented.
2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
roadrunner570
November 22nd, 2007, 03:51 PM
well i see signs and wonders as somthing we should distance ourselfs from..look what the bible says....Mat 12:38 ¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
well im done here :hat
I'm familiar with that passage. So how do we reconcile that passage with this one?
Lk 9:1 When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases,
and
Mk 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
Mk 16:18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
and there are a few others. My take is, the Pharisees were the ones demanding a sign in order to believe Jesus was who he claimed, and that is when he referred to them as an adulterous generation.
Those who were healed were healed as a result of faith, they didn't have faith because they were healed. Now I'm not saying if a person isn't healed that doesn't mean they don't have faith. I'm just saying, I think it can happen.
Now, I'm not a fan of Hinn or Copeland or most these other guys who say if you give them money, God will heal you. I've seen healings occur and I know people personally who were healed and even had it verified by their doctors.
I think the problem is, God does perform miracles today, but some of these circus acts have hijacked them so much with their sideshows, that no one really takes any miracles serously anymore. And Satan just loves those apples.
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