Fate of Jews during the Tribulation

[prairiedog]

Zechariah says that two-thirds of Jews will perish during this time.

Then there's another prophecy (Revelation, I think) which says that "All of Israel shall be saved."

Could an example of the future fulfillment of these seemingly conflicting prophecies be found in the worship of the golden calf at Mount Sinai? Meaning that the non-repentent Israelites were destroyed and the repentent Israelites were preserved.

[blitzkreig]

The "Believing Remnant", who God preserves, is a recurrent concept ...

The Believing Remnant, Preserved and Secure

By John Willson



There has been much debate about the security of believers during this dispensation of Grace, but what about believers in the Old Testament, and during the Kingdom Age? By following the references found in the Scofield Study Bible, we can trace the believing remnant of Israel, and draw some conclusions about the security of believers in other dispensations.


There has always been a remnant since the nation began with Abraham in Genesis 12. We refer to these people as the believing remnant because Romans 9:6-7 says, "...for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel, neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but in Isaac shall Thy seed be called." Throughout Israel's history we see that the majority of this nation was unbelieving, or as God said of them in Romans 10:21, "...a disobedient and gainsaying people." However, there was always the believing few, as Paul states in Romans 11:5: "Even so at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."


Elijah thought he was the only faithful one left in Israel, yet God said to him, "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal." In Isaiah's day the number may have been smaller, because Isaiah 1:9 says, "Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and...Gomorrah."


Isaiah also prophesied the return of the future remnant during the seven-year tribulation (Isaiah 10:20-22). There are many references to the believing remnant throughout Isaiah and Jeremiah, as there are in the other prophetical books. In the four Gospels we see the believing remnant in those who "...looked for redemption in Jerusalem" (Luke 2:36-38). These would be those like Simeon, Anna, Zacharias and Elizabeth, Mary, John the Baptist and all those who believed God's promises. The Lord referred to them as the little flock, for in Luke 12:32 He said, "Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom."


Matthew 24 is a lengthy prophecy of the seven-year tribulation. It is addressed primarily to the believers who will be on earth at that time. Verses 3-12 speak of sorrows and persecutions, wars and famines. Then verse 13 says, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." This will be the fulfillment of Zechariah 13:8-9, because they will be that third part of the nation brought through the fire of the tribulation.


These verses read, "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die, but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people, and they shall say, The LORD is my God."


This verse in Matthew 24:13 does not mean that a person must "endure to the end" or lose his salvation as some teach. This verse is saying that he that lasts or lives through that period will be saved through it and enter into the Kingdom. As God said, "And I will bring the third part through the fire...."


It is very possible that the prophecy of the 144,000 in Revelation 7:4 is referring to this remnant. It reads, "...there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." If they were sealed, they were secure, and it did not depend on their endurance. This is similar to the truth for us in Ephesians 4:30, "...ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."


We know the believing remnant during Jesus' ministry was secure as John 10:28 states: "...they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (see also verse 29). If these kingdom believers were safe and secure, those whom God will bring through the tribulation will be also.
This brings up the question of the security of all the Old Testament saints.


There is no example of a true believer losing his salvation or fearing that he would lose it. Also there is no verse that indicates that these Old Testament saints had to maintain good works to remain saved. The word preserve as used in several Old Testament verses indicates the safety and security of God's people:


Psalm 97:10—"...He preserveth the souls of His saints...."
Psalm 37:28—"For the LORD...forsaketh not His saints, they are preserved forever...."
Psalm 145:20—"The LORD preserveth all them that love Him."

Those whom the Lord knows are often called saints, meaning those HE has sanctified and set apart for Himself. Those kingdom saints were promised eternal life in the future Kingdom, and they knew that God would keep His promise. David's confidence is expressed in Psalm 23:6, "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever." Job was confident when he said, "I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth...yet in my flesh shall I see God" (Job 19:25-26).


Tracing the remnant through the Bible is an interesting study, not only in the Old Testament and in the four gospels, but also through Acts. Also they are addressed in the Jewish-Christian epistles of James, Peter, and John.

James writes to the twelve tribes scattered abroad (James 1:1) and Peter addresses them as the strangers scattered (I Peter 1:1). Then John writes of them often in the great prophecy of Revelation. The remnant was always a minority, even as true believers today are a small minority, yet God gives to all His people the assurance of eternal life, regardless of the dispensation they are under.

.

[prairiedog]

Another question about the Time of Jacob's Trouble:

I've heard some Christians say that it is a time of Israel's punishment.:scratch

I'm not a theologian nor am I bible scholar...but from what I've read in Revelation, it appears that it will be far safer to be a Jew than a gentile.

[blitzkreig]

Another question about the Time of Jacob's Trouble:

I've heard some Christians say that it is a time of Israel's punishment.:scratch

Israel is purged. Brought to her knees ... so that she might recognize her Messiah.

I'm not a theologian nor am I bible scholar...but from what I've read in Revelation, it appears that it will be far safer to be a Jew than a gentile. Better to be In Christ than either. Far better.

[antitox]

(Mark 13, 14-20)
"But when you see the desolating sacrilege set up where it ought not to be, let the reader understand, then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything away; and let him who is in the field not turn back to take his mantle. And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days! Pray that it may not happen in winter. For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will be. And if The Lord had not shortened the days, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days."

Many will die, most assuredly, because only 144,000 of them will be saved, and the statement of "all Israel" may just mean those who are left at that time. It will get very nasty, and it is believed that many will flee to Petra or some other place. If it states that it will be rough for those with child, then I would think escaping to safety is going to be quite difficult.

[prairiedog]

(Mark 13, 14-20)Many will die, most assuredly, because only 144,000 of them will be saved, and the statement of "all Israel" may just mean those who are left at that time. It will get very nasty, and it is believed that many will flee to Petra or some other place. If it states that it will be rough for those with child, then I would think escaping to safety is going to be quite difficult.
I respectfully disagree about the 144,000 being the only ones saved out of Israel.
The scriptures are clear that they are all men because they are virgins who have not defiled themselves with women.
Jimmy DeYoung explained that it is prolly because they will be so busy evangelizing in a short seven year span, that they will not have time for marriage and family responsibilities.
Also, the scriptures refer to the difficulty of escape for pregnant and nursing women. It doesn't say that all are doomed to die, but likely many will.
I do believe that the 144,000 will not taste death due to their sacred duty during this time. The scriptures say they are sealed by God, therefore it's safe to assume they will be divinely protected.

[Robbinson]

I agree with Praire Dog. I believe the 144,000 will be a separate specially ordained group of believing Jews who will evangelize to the rest of Israel. It is those who come to believe during the tribulation (Jews who come to believe before this time are part of the Church and will be brought up in the rapture with Gentile believers) that are referred to as "all Israel" in Romans 11 when Paul says "and all Israel will be saved." This coming to faith by Israel (on a national level) is also fortold in Zechariah when they will call on the name of the Lord and mourn for the one whom they have pierced.

Regards,

[Cap'n Q]

Here's an interesting factoid.

Current estimates claim that here are about 14 million Jews in the world. Of these, about 10 percent are Messianic Jews.

What is 10% of 14 million?

About 140,000.

Interesting.
:)

[antitox]

I respectfully disagree about the 144,000 being the only ones saved out of Israel.
The scriptures are clear that they are all men because they are virgins who have not defiled themselves with women.
Jimmy DeYoung explained that it is prolly because they will be so busy evangelizing in a short seven year span, that they will not have time for marriage and family responsibilities.
Also, the scriptures refer to the difficulty of escape for pregnant and nursing women. It doesn't say that all are doomed to die, but likely many will.
I do believe that the 144,000 will not taste death due to their sacred duty during this time. The scriptures say they are sealed by God, therefore it's safe to assume they will be divinely protected.

That's fine, but for now, I'm going to go with the numbers as listed in the bible. If it turns out as just the men like you say, I certainly have no problem with that because it would mean more people spared.

[Mitsy]

Zechariah says that two-thirds of Jews will perish during this time.

Then there's another prophecy (Revelation, I think) which says that "All of Israel shall be saved."

Could an example of the future fulfillment of these seemingly conflicting prophecies be found in the worship of the golden calf at Mount Sinai? Meaning that the non-repentent Israelites were destroyed and the repentent Israelites were preserved.

Prairiedog

I can't find where it states in Revelation that states "All of Israel shall be saved." Could you please provide reference for this.

As to the 2/3 rds in Zechariah. I've heard some theologians refer to the holocaust as fulfilling this because apparently 2/3 rds of the Jewish population died at that time. Personally I'm not sure if they are right or not by saying this. Open to anyone correcting me on this one.

In Revelation it quotes only 1/3 rd of the population perishing. This being the opposite to that quoted in Zech. I can't see the two being related because the numbers of the dead and the people are different.

Anyway the Bible always speaks of God only having a remnant of Israelites that He will save during the Trib.

RO 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.



ZEC 13:8 In the whole land," declares the LORD,
"two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.

ZEC 13:9 This third I will bring into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, `They are my people,'
and they will say, `The LORD is our God.' "

REV 9:17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19 The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.