billiefan2000
November 28th, 2007, 01:31 PM
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/27/lkl.01.html
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CREFLO DOLLAR, PASTOR, WORLD CHANGERS CHURCH INTERNATIONAL: The word of God is the gateway to the world of wealth.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As for Dollar, he lives in a multi-million Dollar home in Fayetteville, Georgia, travels in expensive cars and private jets, even access to a $2.5 million Manhattan apartment -- with no apology.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Welcome back.
Earlier this month, Senator Chuck Grassley, the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, began an investigation of six prominent Christian ministries. He wants to know if they have illegally used donations to fund lavish lifestyles. Senator Grassley sent letters probing a wide range of areas -- everything from checking and savings accounts, to airplanes and fancy cars. Those contacted have until December 6th to respond.
One of those contacted is Dr. Creflo Dollar, pastor of World Changes Church International and of Creflo Dollar Ministries. He and his wife Taffi are the subject -- one of the subjects of this U.S. Senate inquiry looking into finances.
Are you surprised that you're one of them, doctor?
DOLLAR: Well, yes, sir. I'm very surprised. One of the things that we really want to make clear is that Senator Grassley sent out a very nice letter requesting for us to participate. And, unfortunately, the letter doesn't hold the power of a Committee subpoena, because you have to have the backing of the chairman of the Senate Finance Committee and you have to have the majority vote of that Committee.
So it was a letter requesting for information to participate in him, you know, doing a good job. We really appreciate him wanting to continue to do a good job in overseeing federal tax laws.
KING: Therefore, you are complying?
DOLLAR: Well, we -- we've always stated that we would be willing to comply with any valid request. So what we did after we got the letter was submitted the information to our counsel. They have responded to his letter with a letter from our counsel. And I'll just have to allow the legal argument to take place, because I'm not a lawyer.
KING: I know. But simply put, have you given them the information he requested?
DOLLAR: No, we have not given him the information that he has requested, simply because we don't believe we are under any legal obligations to have to do it when the IRS has already been given the authority to act as a tax examiner and not a Committee.
KING: So why not, doctor, comply?
It's a United States senator. He's the ranking member of the Committee. He's made, as you said, a very nicely written request. You've already complied with the tax people. You've got nothing to hide.
What have you got to lose?
DOLLAR: Well, the difference between giving the information to the IRS versus giving it to a Senate committee is that the IRS is bound by Code 6103, which gives you the tax privacy. The Committee is not bound by any type of codes that will offer us privacy and who wants to wake up the next morning and see their salary and their information in the newspaper?
KING: But you don't want to -- for example, if you're taking personal advantage using credit cards that the church -- that people have given you money as church donations and they turn into buying you a suit of clothes, you don't want to take advantage of people that way, do you?
So this way, by coming out in the open, you show the public you're not.
DOLLAR: Well, first of all, you know, I use my own credit cards to get my clothes. But I believe it's important for us to make sure that we are accountable to those donors and supporters of the ministry, and not to make it a public -- make it a public practice to reveal things concerning our donors, concerning the people that support our ministry, when some of those donors really don't want their names exposed to the public.
KING: Does a donor, any donor, have the right to request information from you after he or she has made a donation to you?
DOLLAR: Absolutely. And not only are we willing to share that information with the donors, but our membership has the right at any time to come into our accounting department and to see the audit reports, to see any financial information that they wish to view, because as a supporter and donor of the ministry, they have a right to see that information.
KING: We'll take a break and come back and we'll talk about the lifestyle and how Dr. Dollar responds to those who criticize it.
Our guest is Dr. Creflo Dollar, pastor of World Changes Church International.
Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOLLAR: And I pray over this first fruit offering. I declare a blessing over this first fruit. And because the first one is blessed, the love is blessed and the rest are (INAUDIBLE) in Jesus' name.
Amen.
(INAUDIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOLLAR: ...offering. And then once you bring an offering, come into his courts (ph), worship the Lord with the beauty of holiness, here before him on the Earth. So it is scriptural (ph) to bring an offering when you come into the sanctuary of God.
Amen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: My guest is Dr. Creflo Dollar.
Give us a sense of your lifestyle, doctor. You -- it's reported you have a mansion in Atlanta, a multi-million dollar apartment in New York, a private jet.
Why would a minister -- a guy speaking the word, anyone speaking the word of the Lord -- need that?
DOLLAR: Well, first of all, the private jet is owned by the church. I don't own it personally. And I see that jet as necessary -- a necessary tool in order to accomplish the mission of our ministry. I preach all over the world. We have offices all over the world. I pastor a church in New York and Atlanta. We're setting up hundreds of satellite churches around the country. So my board of directors and the constituents that support our ministry saw it as a necessary tool in order for me to accomplish the mission.
As far as the apartment in New York, I've been working for years, and if you manage your money properly and if you work and, you know, own businesses and do what you're supposed to do, then you can afford to buy those with your own money. I think there's a miscalculated assumption that whenever a minister owns anything that he had to use the church's money to purchase it. But there are ministers, like myself, who -- we own our own businesses. We're intelligent enough to invest and to save and to manage our money properly. And so if we choose to purchase what we want to purchase with our money, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
KING: But did the money come from basic starting with donations that you used smartly enough and invested well enough to get that beautiful apartment in New York, but the basis of the money was from donors?
DOLLAR: Not my money. The basis of my money came from my businesses. I had a job before I went into the ministry. I used to be a therapist. And when you invest properly and you do the proper things with your money -- I try to practice and comply with the IRS. And that is to keep the finances of the ministry separate from personal spending. And that's very important in order to comply with IRS regulations.
KING: When Senator Grassley says -- he said in an interview: "Jesus comes into the city in a simple mule and you get people today expanding his gospel in corporate jets. Somebody ought to raise questions about whether that's right or wrong."
Don't you think most people would say that what you're doing -- if you've got a corporate jet, whether the church owns it or not -- is basically anti- -- it's anti what you're teaching?
DOLLAR: Not at all. What we teach is a gospel that simply says, according to the word, that it is God's will for you to prosper and be in health, even as your soul prospers. We also believe that the father takes pleasure in the prosperity of his children. So if the first amendment still in operation, then whether people agree with it or not, it still gives us the freedom to exercise what we believe from the word of God.
And so -- there are people who don't agree with it, but it is clearly identified in scripture in the bible to prosper, not only in your health, not only in your family, not only with your marriage, but also financially. But if the constituents and the supporters and the board of directors have no problem with getting those tools to use it in ministry, then it's no problem at all. And I think when most people look at it and make comments, it's because they lack the understanding of the IRS regulations and the complying with the IRS. And there's nothing wrong with it at all. Those constituents believe that that church should have those tools.
KING: So you deserve, then, your tax exemptions?
DOLLAR: Well, I want to make sure I'm very clear on this. As a citizen of the United States, I pay taxes. Also, as a 501(c)(3) non- profit organization, we pay -- we are responsible for paying sales taxes and we're also responsible for paying employee taxes. Now, we are exempt from federal taxes, but that is because that regulation was given to us by the United States government.
KING: Yes.
DOLLAR: And so, as a result of it, we didn't make the laws. We're just abiding by them.
KING: Let me get a call.
Washington, D.C. a call for Dr. Creflo Dollar.
Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello.
KING: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello.
How are you doing?
KING: All right, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've got a question for the pastor. Thank you for letting me answer ask my question.
But, Pastor, I do think that the bible also mandates that we help the impoverished people in our communities. So I just wanted to know what you do personally and what does your ministry do to help the people in your community who aren't as fortunate as you are?
DOLLAR: Yes, sir. We have over 60 outreach ministries that reach out in almost every area. We feed the poor. We clothe them. We build homes. We have an outreach ministry to prostitutes and to bring them off the street and put them into housing. We have a ministry where we give money to single mothers to help them cut their grocery bills down. We have ministry to HIV/AIDS. We have drug addiction ministries.
Our outreach not only goes out and reaches out to our community, but as a worldwide ministry, we reach out to our community, we reach out to the entire United States and we reach out to the six continents around the world.
KING: We'll take a break and be back with some more moments with his Dr. Creflo Dollar. And then Sharon Stone on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE.
Senator Fred Thompson will be our special guest on Friday night.
Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ...followers, the more they give, the more they'll be blessed. Now White and five other media-based ministries are being investigated for alleged financial misconduct by Republican Senator Grassley. SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY (R-IA), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: I'm just interested in not the personality and not the preaching of these people, I'm only interested are the laws being followed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says he's following up on news reports and complaints to his office from whistleblowers about possible misuse of millions of dollars that go to tax-exempt mega churches.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Some more moments with Dr. Creflo Dollar.
Last night, Dr. Dollar, Pastor Paula White, who is also under investigation, was on this show. And here is what she responded when I asked her about that last night.
Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PASTOR PAULA WHITE: Why is our faith being targeted as part of this inquiry when there are laws on the book and there is legal jurisdiction any time there is abuse in financial handling?
KING: But Senator Grassley is trying to change the law with regard to a tax break because he feels if someone is in the church and they can afford a plane, why do they get a tax break? It's a fair question.
WHITE: But there are already current laws on the books and there are jurisdictions -- the IRS can come in and do any kind of investigation for a person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Dr. Dollar, do you believe that you deserve, in the areas you get it, tax exemption?
DOLLAR: Oh, absolutely. If you look at how our nation has always operated, we just would be in a pitiful position if the church was not able to reach out and help people when tragic situations hit.
I mean, we do things that the government won't even think about doing because we're grassroots. We have compassion for people. We touch those people.
And the government is not always going to give us the funds in order to really help our people in very horrific situations. So, I absolutely do think we deserve to do that and to be able to do it. And you can do it with that tax exempt status. But we do so much for people is what I want folks to really realize.
If you take away the church from the nation, understand that the church makes good people. And good people make up a strong nation. But if you continue to attack the church, which will create good people, then you're going to effect the strength of that nation. And without a doubt, the strength of this nation is the local churches that are in this nation.
KING: And if donations were diverted for personal use, you would be against that completely, right?
DOLLAR: Oh, absolutely. Why? Because it's against the law.
We should be accountable for making sure that the financial donations of donors and supporters are being used for the purpose that we have stated for them to be used. And so I have no problems with the laws, but I think people need to understand, we didn't create the laws.
And so maybe the government never thought that the church would grow past 200 or 300 or 500 people. But now that the churches are growing to 10,000 and 20,000 and 50,000 because they're reaching out more, they're feeding more people -- they're the ones who went into Katrina and ministered to the folks. They were the ones that go into tornado situations. And so we've got to be careful not to beat up on the church all the time, because it's the church that will be there to bury you, to marry you, to comfort you, to counsel you, to take care of you.
And we can't depend on governmental funds to pay for all of the services that we are providing to the public every single day.
KING: Thank you, Dr. Dollar. Thanks for being with us.
DOLLAR: Thank you, sir.
KING: Dr. Creflo Dollar, pastor of the World Changers Church International and of Creflo Dollar Ministries.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/27/lkl.01.html
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CREFLO DOLLAR, PASTOR, WORLD CHANGERS CHURCH INTERNATIONAL: The word of God is the gateway to the world of wealth.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As for Dollar, he lives in a multi-million Dollar home in Fayetteville, Georgia, travels in expensive cars and private jets, even access to a $2.5 million Manhattan apartment -- with no apology.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Welcome back.
Earlier this month, Senator Chuck Grassley, the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, began an investigation of six prominent Christian ministries. He wants to know if they have illegally used donations to fund lavish lifestyles. Senator Grassley sent letters probing a wide range of areas -- everything from checking and savings accounts, to airplanes and fancy cars. Those contacted have until December 6th to respond.
One of those contacted is Dr. Creflo Dollar, pastor of World Changes Church International and of Creflo Dollar Ministries. He and his wife Taffi are the subject -- one of the subjects of this U.S. Senate inquiry looking into finances.
Are you surprised that you're one of them, doctor?
DOLLAR: Well, yes, sir. I'm very surprised. One of the things that we really want to make clear is that Senator Grassley sent out a very nice letter requesting for us to participate. And, unfortunately, the letter doesn't hold the power of a Committee subpoena, because you have to have the backing of the chairman of the Senate Finance Committee and you have to have the majority vote of that Committee.
So it was a letter requesting for information to participate in him, you know, doing a good job. We really appreciate him wanting to continue to do a good job in overseeing federal tax laws.
KING: Therefore, you are complying?
DOLLAR: Well, we -- we've always stated that we would be willing to comply with any valid request. So what we did after we got the letter was submitted the information to our counsel. They have responded to his letter with a letter from our counsel. And I'll just have to allow the legal argument to take place, because I'm not a lawyer.
KING: I know. But simply put, have you given them the information he requested?
DOLLAR: No, we have not given him the information that he has requested, simply because we don't believe we are under any legal obligations to have to do it when the IRS has already been given the authority to act as a tax examiner and not a Committee.
KING: So why not, doctor, comply?
It's a United States senator. He's the ranking member of the Committee. He's made, as you said, a very nicely written request. You've already complied with the tax people. You've got nothing to hide.
What have you got to lose?
DOLLAR: Well, the difference between giving the information to the IRS versus giving it to a Senate committee is that the IRS is bound by Code 6103, which gives you the tax privacy. The Committee is not bound by any type of codes that will offer us privacy and who wants to wake up the next morning and see their salary and their information in the newspaper?
KING: But you don't want to -- for example, if you're taking personal advantage using credit cards that the church -- that people have given you money as church donations and they turn into buying you a suit of clothes, you don't want to take advantage of people that way, do you?
So this way, by coming out in the open, you show the public you're not.
DOLLAR: Well, first of all, you know, I use my own credit cards to get my clothes. But I believe it's important for us to make sure that we are accountable to those donors and supporters of the ministry, and not to make it a public -- make it a public practice to reveal things concerning our donors, concerning the people that support our ministry, when some of those donors really don't want their names exposed to the public.
KING: Does a donor, any donor, have the right to request information from you after he or she has made a donation to you?
DOLLAR: Absolutely. And not only are we willing to share that information with the donors, but our membership has the right at any time to come into our accounting department and to see the audit reports, to see any financial information that they wish to view, because as a supporter and donor of the ministry, they have a right to see that information.
KING: We'll take a break and come back and we'll talk about the lifestyle and how Dr. Dollar responds to those who criticize it.
Our guest is Dr. Creflo Dollar, pastor of World Changes Church International.
Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOLLAR: And I pray over this first fruit offering. I declare a blessing over this first fruit. And because the first one is blessed, the love is blessed and the rest are (INAUDIBLE) in Jesus' name.
Amen.
(INAUDIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOLLAR: ...offering. And then once you bring an offering, come into his courts (ph), worship the Lord with the beauty of holiness, here before him on the Earth. So it is scriptural (ph) to bring an offering when you come into the sanctuary of God.
Amen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: My guest is Dr. Creflo Dollar.
Give us a sense of your lifestyle, doctor. You -- it's reported you have a mansion in Atlanta, a multi-million dollar apartment in New York, a private jet.
Why would a minister -- a guy speaking the word, anyone speaking the word of the Lord -- need that?
DOLLAR: Well, first of all, the private jet is owned by the church. I don't own it personally. And I see that jet as necessary -- a necessary tool in order to accomplish the mission of our ministry. I preach all over the world. We have offices all over the world. I pastor a church in New York and Atlanta. We're setting up hundreds of satellite churches around the country. So my board of directors and the constituents that support our ministry saw it as a necessary tool in order for me to accomplish the mission.
As far as the apartment in New York, I've been working for years, and if you manage your money properly and if you work and, you know, own businesses and do what you're supposed to do, then you can afford to buy those with your own money. I think there's a miscalculated assumption that whenever a minister owns anything that he had to use the church's money to purchase it. But there are ministers, like myself, who -- we own our own businesses. We're intelligent enough to invest and to save and to manage our money properly. And so if we choose to purchase what we want to purchase with our money, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
KING: But did the money come from basic starting with donations that you used smartly enough and invested well enough to get that beautiful apartment in New York, but the basis of the money was from donors?
DOLLAR: Not my money. The basis of my money came from my businesses. I had a job before I went into the ministry. I used to be a therapist. And when you invest properly and you do the proper things with your money -- I try to practice and comply with the IRS. And that is to keep the finances of the ministry separate from personal spending. And that's very important in order to comply with IRS regulations.
KING: When Senator Grassley says -- he said in an interview: "Jesus comes into the city in a simple mule and you get people today expanding his gospel in corporate jets. Somebody ought to raise questions about whether that's right or wrong."
Don't you think most people would say that what you're doing -- if you've got a corporate jet, whether the church owns it or not -- is basically anti- -- it's anti what you're teaching?
DOLLAR: Not at all. What we teach is a gospel that simply says, according to the word, that it is God's will for you to prosper and be in health, even as your soul prospers. We also believe that the father takes pleasure in the prosperity of his children. So if the first amendment still in operation, then whether people agree with it or not, it still gives us the freedom to exercise what we believe from the word of God.
And so -- there are people who don't agree with it, but it is clearly identified in scripture in the bible to prosper, not only in your health, not only in your family, not only with your marriage, but also financially. But if the constituents and the supporters and the board of directors have no problem with getting those tools to use it in ministry, then it's no problem at all. And I think when most people look at it and make comments, it's because they lack the understanding of the IRS regulations and the complying with the IRS. And there's nothing wrong with it at all. Those constituents believe that that church should have those tools.
KING: So you deserve, then, your tax exemptions?
DOLLAR: Well, I want to make sure I'm very clear on this. As a citizen of the United States, I pay taxes. Also, as a 501(c)(3) non- profit organization, we pay -- we are responsible for paying sales taxes and we're also responsible for paying employee taxes. Now, we are exempt from federal taxes, but that is because that regulation was given to us by the United States government.
KING: Yes.
DOLLAR: And so, as a result of it, we didn't make the laws. We're just abiding by them.
KING: Let me get a call.
Washington, D.C. a call for Dr. Creflo Dollar.
Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello.
KING: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello.
How are you doing?
KING: All right, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've got a question for the pastor. Thank you for letting me answer ask my question.
But, Pastor, I do think that the bible also mandates that we help the impoverished people in our communities. So I just wanted to know what you do personally and what does your ministry do to help the people in your community who aren't as fortunate as you are?
DOLLAR: Yes, sir. We have over 60 outreach ministries that reach out in almost every area. We feed the poor. We clothe them. We build homes. We have an outreach ministry to prostitutes and to bring them off the street and put them into housing. We have a ministry where we give money to single mothers to help them cut their grocery bills down. We have ministry to HIV/AIDS. We have drug addiction ministries.
Our outreach not only goes out and reaches out to our community, but as a worldwide ministry, we reach out to our community, we reach out to the entire United States and we reach out to the six continents around the world.
KING: We'll take a break and be back with some more moments with his Dr. Creflo Dollar. And then Sharon Stone on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE.
Senator Fred Thompson will be our special guest on Friday night.
Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ...followers, the more they give, the more they'll be blessed. Now White and five other media-based ministries are being investigated for alleged financial misconduct by Republican Senator Grassley. SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY (R-IA), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: I'm just interested in not the personality and not the preaching of these people, I'm only interested are the laws being followed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says he's following up on news reports and complaints to his office from whistleblowers about possible misuse of millions of dollars that go to tax-exempt mega churches.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Some more moments with Dr. Creflo Dollar.
Last night, Dr. Dollar, Pastor Paula White, who is also under investigation, was on this show. And here is what she responded when I asked her about that last night.
Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PASTOR PAULA WHITE: Why is our faith being targeted as part of this inquiry when there are laws on the book and there is legal jurisdiction any time there is abuse in financial handling?
KING: But Senator Grassley is trying to change the law with regard to a tax break because he feels if someone is in the church and they can afford a plane, why do they get a tax break? It's a fair question.
WHITE: But there are already current laws on the books and there are jurisdictions -- the IRS can come in and do any kind of investigation for a person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Dr. Dollar, do you believe that you deserve, in the areas you get it, tax exemption?
DOLLAR: Oh, absolutely. If you look at how our nation has always operated, we just would be in a pitiful position if the church was not able to reach out and help people when tragic situations hit.
I mean, we do things that the government won't even think about doing because we're grassroots. We have compassion for people. We touch those people.
And the government is not always going to give us the funds in order to really help our people in very horrific situations. So, I absolutely do think we deserve to do that and to be able to do it. And you can do it with that tax exempt status. But we do so much for people is what I want folks to really realize.
If you take away the church from the nation, understand that the church makes good people. And good people make up a strong nation. But if you continue to attack the church, which will create good people, then you're going to effect the strength of that nation. And without a doubt, the strength of this nation is the local churches that are in this nation.
KING: And if donations were diverted for personal use, you would be against that completely, right?
DOLLAR: Oh, absolutely. Why? Because it's against the law.
We should be accountable for making sure that the financial donations of donors and supporters are being used for the purpose that we have stated for them to be used. And so I have no problems with the laws, but I think people need to understand, we didn't create the laws.
And so maybe the government never thought that the church would grow past 200 or 300 or 500 people. But now that the churches are growing to 10,000 and 20,000 and 50,000 because they're reaching out more, they're feeding more people -- they're the ones who went into Katrina and ministered to the folks. They were the ones that go into tornado situations. And so we've got to be careful not to beat up on the church all the time, because it's the church that will be there to bury you, to marry you, to comfort you, to counsel you, to take care of you.
And we can't depend on governmental funds to pay for all of the services that we are providing to the public every single day.
KING: Thank you, Dr. Dollar. Thanks for being with us.
DOLLAR: Thank you, sir.
KING: Dr. Creflo Dollar, pastor of the World Changers Church International and of Creflo Dollar Ministries.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/27/lkl.01.html