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MsSophie
January 11th, 2008, 12:27 AM
I usually read Jack Kelley but in his latest commentary on Hebrews he wrote this which I don't understand:




Let's take a moment here to clarify the difference in destines between Israel and the Church. Whenever the Bible talks about the destiny of the Jews, it's always in the context of Earth. On the other hand the Church's destiny is clearly Heaven, or more accurately, the New Jerusalem. Although it takes some effort to see it, this difference is actually confirmed in Isaiah 65:17 and Rev. 21:1 where both a new Heaven and a new Earth are mentioned. (For the purposes of this discussion we'll ignore the controversies over when this will happen,Millennium or Eternity, and how it will happen, whether the old Heaven and Earth will be made new or whether both will be created new from scratch after the old are destroyed.)

If the writer to the Hebrews was telling us that since the beginning God's people have looked forward to dwelling in Heaven, why are both required? Where's the need for a new Earth?

Well, if you take all the passages from the Old Testament that speak of Israel's eternal dwelling place you have to conclude that it's on Earth. There are several of these in the Book of Isaiah (chapters 35 and 65:17-25 are a couple of good ones) but perhaps the clearest one is in Ezekiel 43:7 where after the 2nd Coming, upon entering the Temple in Israel on Earth for the first time in over 2600 years, God will say, "This is where I will live among the Israelites forever."

My point is this. Just because Abraham was looking forward to a city whose architect and builder is God, and just because the patriarchs were all looking for a better country, a heavenly one, doesn't mean it can't be on Earth. In fact it has to be in order to fulfill God's promises to them.

On the other hand, the Church is clearly promised that one day Jesus will return to Earth to take us to be with Him in the place He was about to go to when He made the promise, Heaven. (John 14:2-3) He didn't promise to return and stay with us here where we are, as His Father did with Israel. He promised to take us to be with Him there, where He was going to prepare a place for us. When He left Earth He went to Heaven and that's where He's been preparing our place. When He returns for us, He'll take us there. See the difference?


It sounds very much like he is saying when the new heavens and earth are created that the church and the Jews/Israel will not live together, that the Church will live in the new Heaven and the Jews will live on the new Earth.

Am I missing something? I thought in eternity we would all live together (Israel and the Church) on the new Earth.

Also this statement :

On the other hand, the Church is clearly promised that one day Jesus will return to Earth to take us to be with Him in the place He was about to go to when He made the promise, Heaven.

Isn't he speaking here of when Jesus takes the Church at the rapture? This sounds like he's combining theology on Heaven after the rapture and the final new earth and heaven.

Galoutofdixie
January 11th, 2008, 01:57 AM
Hi there,

I've read several different commentaries about this, and some of our member Joel's studies.

If I remember correctly, There will be a new heaven and a new earth. God will live with the Jews on the New Earth. The Jews are referred to as the Wife of God. The Church will live in the New Jerusalem with Christ. The Church is referred to as the Bride of Christ.

The New Jerusalem will decend from Heaven, but it never mentions that it will be physically on Earth. Many bible scholars believe it will hover like a low level Satillite above the earth. They believe this because of the dimensions of the New Jerusalem given in the bible. It would be much to big to actually be on Earth.

I also believe that I read that we, the church, will be able to come and go between the New Jerusalem and the New Earth. But the Jews will not be able to go between the 2. So we'll have contact, but be living in 2 different spaces.

I believe that there is a study on this over at Jack's site. If I can find it, I'll come back and post it here. I'm sure I've probably got some of my facts wrong and am not explaining it well. Maybe Jack's study will help clarify it?

It's funny, even though I've read this stuff before, I never gave it extra thought. Now I'm curious too. LOL!

Oh, I think there is mention of this idea in one of Joel's study here in this forum also. I take a look here first. :hugs

MsSophie
January 11th, 2008, 02:13 AM
Thank you for that explanation. I've done quite a bit of study on prophecy and Revelations but have never heard it explained that way about the Jews. I knew that about Israel being the wife of God and the Church being the bride of Jesus but had never heard that Jews who are believers would not have access to the new Heaven. So, the Jews would not have access to the new Jeruselum either? I'll have to check some of those areas you mentioned.

Galoutofdixie
January 11th, 2008, 02:27 AM
Okay, Here's one short article from Jack's site talking about the New Jerusalem. It's not the one I'm looking for but does touch on the size and the place of the New Jerusalem.

http://www.gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/the-new-jerusalem

Here's another one from Jack. Still not the one I'm looking for, but does cover some of our questions.

Where Do We Go From Here? http://www.gracethrufaith.com/selah/thy-kingdom-come/where-do-we-go-from-here

I'm sure that Joel's thread on this were more indepth, but now I'm having trouble finding those. :gagh

Also, I must go off to bed, but will look some more tomorrow. :hug

HeIsEnough
January 11th, 2008, 06:05 AM
It sounds very much like he is saying when the new heavens and earth are created that the church and the Jews/Israel will not live together, that the Church will live in the new Heaven and the Jews will live on the new Earth.

That sounds like what is being said. Reading Revelation 21 in its entirety, does not show this distinction.

Paidfor
January 11th, 2008, 01:07 PM
That sounds like what is being said. Reading Revelation 21 in its entirety, does not show this distinction.

I think I remember from the thread you started a few months ago about Rev 21,22 that brother Kelly believes that those two chapters are about the MK and not the eternal order. That may be the basis for his teaching on the eternal destiny of the Jews.

I'll have to look at this tonight when I'm not at work.

MsSophie
January 11th, 2008, 01:07 PM
I did some more research on Jack Kelley's interpretation of Rev 21 and 22. He is speaking of the Millinnial in his study this week. Upon studying his interpretation of Rev 21 and 22 he indicates that he does not know what eternity will be like except that believers will be living in bliss with God and everyone else will not.

7) Eternity

I can't say much about eternity except to tell you that there is one. The Bible ends at the end of the Millennium, yet teaches us that every one ever born lives forever. The question is not whether you have eternal life. The question is where you will spend eternity. There are only two possible destinations and we've described them both. Eternal bliss in the presence of God, or eternal shame and punishment banished from the presence of God

http://www.rr-rapture.com/featured/kelley/seven3.html

HeIsEnough
January 11th, 2008, 01:15 PM
I think I remember from the thread you started a few months ago about Rev 21,22 that brother Kelly believes that those two chapters are about the MK and not the eternal order. That may be the basis for his teaching on the eternal destiny of the Jews.

I'll have to look at this tonight when I'm not at work.

I agree that he does, but of course I see issues with that view.

What is interesting, is his call for suspension over the 'controversies' in order to examine it in that way. If one were to study this , that may be a good path to take while wrestling with these scriptures.. One will come out on top more than the other. Can you guess which one I may be thinking that is? :heh

Paidfor
January 11th, 2008, 01:19 PM
I did some more research on Jack Kelley's interpretation of Rev 21 and 22. He is speaking of the Millinnial in his study this week. Upon studying his interpretation of Rev 21 and 22 he indicates that he does not know what eternity will be like except that believers will be living in bliss with God and everyone else will not.



http://www.rr-rapture.com/featured/kelley/seven3.html

Hmmm, that seems to be different from your quote in the OP. Maybe his opinion has changed slightly over time. :idunno

MsSophie
January 11th, 2008, 01:39 PM
I know. It's confusing to me too. My first question came from his commentary(Part 8) this week on Hebrews where he talks about the new heaven and earth. At one point he suggests that we forego what we think of the millinneal period during his discussion.

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/kelley/heb8.html
Let's take a moment here to clarify the difference in destines between Israel and the Church. Whenever the Bible talks about the destiny of the Jews, it's always in the context of Earth. On the other hand the Church's destiny is clearly Heaven, or more accurately, the New Jerusalem. Although it takes some effort to see it, this difference is actually confirmed in Isaiah 65:17 and Rev. 21:1 where both a new Heaven and a new Earth are mentioned. (For the purposes of this discussion we'll ignore the controversies over when this will happen,Millennium or Eternity, and how it will happen, whether the old Heaven and Earth will be made new or whether both will be created new from scratch after the old are destroyed.)
So I took that to mean it's not during the millinneal period he's talking about. However, on further study from the thread I listed in my third post I think that is exactly what he's talking about(the millinneal period).

The second quote is actually his from another study which is an RR thread and that is where he states that Revelations stops after the millinneal period and he does not know about eternity. See his quote post #7.