I don't know...I think we could be off-base on some things...

[Josiah]

I've been struggling for a while with some things that are being taught compared to what the Bible seems to say. It is in regards to Faith/Works/Grace. I've mentioned verses that say we must forgive to be forgiven, we must use our talents or be called a worthless servant and be cast out, we must provide for those in need or we will be told that Jesus never knew us and be cast into outer darkness. Some of the explanations I've heard are that those statements were made by Jesus Himself and, so, were a part of the old law still (since He had not yet died).

However, I was reading in James this morning (written as early as 50 AD but probably closer to 60 AD after Jesus had died, risen and ascended into heaven). It clearly states in James 2:12-13:

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

and the REAL clincher is in James 2:24 which says:

24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

This flies in the face of what just about every pastor in the world is teaching about grace. I've been a Christian for many many years. I've heard all kinds of teachings but this one has me stumped! How can we be saved by grace through faith and not by works when James says that we are not justified by faith alone?

Do we have more of a part to play in receiving grace than what is being taught (that all I have to do is say "I believe" and mean it)? The Bible sure seems to say so.

Every answer I ever receive states the same old things, that Jesus wasn't talking to us or it was before the age of grace...Something just doesn't seem right and I wonder if we're really missing something. Clearly I don't think we can EARN our salvation, the Bible is clear on that, but I can't help but wonder if we're wrong in our understanding of grace...

Any help?

[Josiah]

Wow...I posted the above before I saw the other thread called "Questions about works".

[WretchSaved]

I've been struggling for a while with some things that are being taught compared to what the Bible seems to say. It is in regards to Faith/Works/Grace. I've mentioned verses that say we must forgive to be forgiven, we must use our talents or be called a worthless servant and be cast out, we must provide for those in need or we will be told that Jesus never knew us and be cast into outer darkness. Some of the explanations I've heard are that those statements were made by Jesus Himself and, so, were a part of the old law still (since He had not yet died).

However, I was reading in James this morning (written as early as 50 AD but probably closer to 60 AD after Jesus had died, risen and ascended into heaven). It clearly states in James 2:12-13:

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

and the REAL clincher is in James 2:24 which says:

24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

This flies in the face of what just about every pastor in the world is teaching about grace. I've been a Christian for many many years. I've heard all kinds of teachings but this one has me stumped! How can we be saved by grace through faith and not by works when James says that we are not justified by faith alone?

Do we have more of a part to play in receiving grace than what is being taught (that all I have to do is say "I believe" and mean it)? The Bible sure seems to say so.
Every answer I ever receive states the same old things, that Jesus wasn't talking to us or it was before the age of grace...Something just doesn't seem right and I wonder if we're really missing something. Clearly I don't think we can EARN our salvation, the Bible is clear on that, but I can't help but wonder if we're wrong in our understanding of grace...

Any help?

:thumb

Every answer I ever receive states the same old things, that Jesus wasn't talking to us or it was before the age of grace...Something just doesn't seem right and I wonder if we're really missing something. Clearly I don't think we can EARN our salvation, the Bible is clear on that, but I can't help but wonder if we're wrong in our understanding of grace...

Amen Josiah! :thumb ...the entire Bible pertains to all of us, and it is quite obvious that so many Christians deem fit to pick and choose which parts they can live with, and throw the rest away.

[Buzzardhut]

Follow through with what James is saying
He uses Rahab the harlot as the example
Now why wouldn't God use a priest or religious person in this situation?

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Was Rahab trying to be Holy? Religious? Was rahab trying to get to heaven? trying to work for her faith?
No

It was because she believed God she helped the spies.
It was because she was saved good works flowed out of her

Rahab was not trying to use works to maintain or gain salvation as the religious love to do.

Rahab's faith was expressed through a work
she did not have it backwards trying to do good works in hopes of salvation.

Any help?

:thumb

Amen Josiah! :thumb ...the entire Bible pertains to all of us, and it is quite obvious that so many Christians deem fit to pick and choose which parts they can live with, and throw the rest away.
Who is throwing away scripture?

[Josiah]

Follow through with what James is saying
He uses Rahab the harlot as the example
Now why wouldn't God use a priest or religious person in this situation?

James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Was Rahab trying to be Holy? Religious? Was rahab trying to get to heaven? trying to work for her faith?
No

It was because she believed God she helped the spies.
It was because she was saved good works flowed out of her

Rahab was not trying to use works to maintain or gain salvation as the religious love to do.

Rahab's faith was expressed through a work
she did not have it backwards trying to do good works in hopes of salvation.

That's the best explanation I've heard yet. Thanks!

[Stinker]

Buzzardhutt is a wise..? Buzzard?

[Obadiah]

Wretch:

You said:

the entire Bible pertains to all of us, and it is quite obvious that so many Christians deem fit to pick and choose which parts they can live with, and throw the rest away.

So I'll be dropping by sometime in the near future to check out your altar where you sacrifice sheep to make atonement for your soul.

What's that? You don't sacrifice sheep? Are you throwing away the book of Leviticus because it's not one of the parts you pick and choose?

Brother (sister?), the Bible is not monolithic. While I agree that "the entire Bible pertains to us," different portions of Scripture are pertinent in different ways. There's reasonable disagreement among Christians on exactly how to implement this principle, on exactly which parts pertain in which ways. But it's impossible to take the entire Bible in one fell swoop.

[Timothy Long]

Wretch:

You said:



So I'll be dropping by sometime in the near future to check out your altar where you sacrifice sheep to make atonement for your soul.

What's that? You don't sacrifice sheep? Are you throwing away the book of Leviticus because it's not one of the parts you pick and choose?

Brother (sister?), the Bible is not monolithic. While I agree that "the entire Bible pertains to us," different portions of Scripture are pertinent in different ways. There's reasonable disagreement among Christians on exactly how to implement this principle, on exactly which parts pertain in which ways. But it's impossible to take the entire Bible in one fell swoop.

read Jeremiah 31:31-33, the old testament prophet said a new covenant was coming to Israel, out of the house of Judah. A new covenant would be, because they broke the original covenant. Then read Luke 22:20.

[Tall Timbers]

Was Rahab trying to be Holy? Religious? Was rahab trying to get to heaven? trying to work for her faith?
No

It was because she believed God she helped the spies.
It was because she was saved good works flowed out of her

Rahab was not trying to use works to maintain or gain salvation as the religious love to do.


It would not have been possible for me to say the above so eloquently. I usually just say, "We are known by our fruits."

[Patchwork]

Such good answers , And then read, 2Co 3:6 [God,] who has made us able ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.