John 17:1-2

[Saved by Grace_06]

“Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him."

How do you guys interpret that scripture?

[RefinedbyFire]

^It sure matches that verse that reveals that the Father gives Jesus His sheep, and nothing can snatch them out of His hand.

John 10:27-30 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. [28] I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. [29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and the Father are one." [NIV]

[Saved by Grace_06]

^It sure matches that verse that reveals that the Father gives Jesus His sheep, and nothing can snatch them out of His hand.

John 10:27-30 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. [28] I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. [29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. [30] I and the Father are one." [NIV]

I was thinking the same thing. That said however, does the fact that God the Father has a people to which he gave God the Son suggest that the rest are not going to be saved?

[Robbinson]

I was thinking the same thing. That said however, does the fact that God the Father has a people to which he gave God the Son suggest that the rest are not going to be saved?

This is one of the great debates among Christians (Calvinism v. Arminianism (and varients of both). I do believe that salvation comes in an act of unmerited grace from the Father and that no-one comes to Jesus but those who the Father draws.

Is it possible that God chooses to draw those who he forknew would "choose" him (Arminian thought)? - absolutely. However, I acknowledge (and this is where I part ways with Armininian thought) that this might not be God's plan but whatever basis God used to determine on whom the Holy Spirit would fall and therefore, who would be saved, is the best plan since its His plan.

That being said - I feel like I learn more every day that I read scripture - so its possible my views on salvation theory will change over time. I just pray for guidance if understanding God's Word. In any event, I'm thankful that God came into my life and drew me into the loving and warm embrace of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, regardless of the basis of His action.

Regards,

[Saved by Grace_06]

This is one of the great debates among Christians (Calvinism v. Arminianism (and varients of both). I do believe that salvation comes in an act of unmerited grace from the Father and that no-one comes to Jesus but those who the Father draws.

Is it possible that God chooses to draw those who he forknew would "choose" him (Arminian thought)? - absolutely. However, I acknowledge (and this is where I part ways with Armininian thought) that this might not be God's plan but whatever basis God used to determine on whom the Holy Spirit would fall and therefore, who would be saved, is the best plan since its His plan.

That being said - I feel like I learn more every day that I read scripture - so its possible my views on salvation theory will change over time. I just pray for guidance if understanding God's Word. In any event, I'm thankful that God came into my life and drew me into the loving and warm embrace of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, regardless of the basis of His action.

Regards,

Tell me more about the Arminian thought, please. If God choose those whom would choose him did he really save us by grace or obligation? Please explain more about his foreknowledge. Im curious.

Thanks!

[Mike]

“Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him."

How do you guys interpret that scripture?
Jesus counts the ones who come to Him as having been given to Him from His Father. They are the ones that have been given to be with Him for all eternity. They are His. Given to Him by the Father.

The ones who reject are not His. They will not be in a love relationship with Him for eternity. They will be seperated out and trashed.

It is a stretch to see predestination in these verses.


-

[Robbinson]

Tell me more about the Arminian thought, please. If God choose those whom would choose him did he really save us by grace or obligation? Please explain more about his foreknowledge. Im curious.

Thanks!

I'll try - others feel free to correct me if they think I am buthering the Arminian and/or Calvinist perspective (there are many variations - so this is a really broad overview). It goes something like this.

VERY GENERAL COMPARISON (Arminianism and Calvinism):

Similarities:

Both theologies affirm the doctrine of "total depravity" (i.e., man is inherently sinful and would not choose God without the assistance of the Holy Spirit, through God's grace, (they differ, however, in how God remedies this depravity).

Both theologies affirm that Christ's atonement is limited to the "elect' (they differ on how people become the "elect").

Differences:

Nature of election and grace:

Arminians believe that the Holy Spirit, through God's grace, restores our ability to choose ("free will") and we are therefore able to accept the gospel in faith, or reject it in unbelief. Calvinists believe that the Holy Spirit, through God's grace only falls upon those who are God's elect and this irresistibly leads to salvation (e.g., they will therefore come to faith in Christ as Lord and Saviour and be saved).

Who is Drawn To God:

Arminians believe that God, the Father, draws all to Jesus, but only those who choose to believe are saved (and are the elect). A variant on this is that God only draws the elect - but those are the ones whom God foreknew would choose Him (since God is timeless and can see into our hearts irrespective of limitations on time - so only the elect are drawn - the elect are determined in the beginning of time but based upon our exercise of free will which God foreknew). Calvinists believe that God, the Father, draws only the elect - having nothing to do, [necessarily] (I want to talk about that word "necessarily") with our choices or free will.

Keeping the Faith:

Arminians believe that salvation comes through faith alone, but that salvation is conditional on our maintaining that faith - eg. we choose whether to believe, so this is ongoing until death. Calvinists believe that once in faith (once saved) nothing can cause us to lose our faith (e.g., backsliding is an indication that there was never saving grace to begin with).

I hope that helps (and I hope I got it right!)

Regards

[Saved by Grace_06]

Jesus counts the ones who come to Him as having been given to Him from His Father. They are the ones that have been given to be with Him for all eternity. They are His. Given to Him by the Father.

The ones who reject are not His. They will not be in a love relationship with Him for eternity. They will be seperated out and trashed.

It is a stretch to see predestination in these verses.


-

From the text alone, what proof do you have that "those the Father gave Jesus" are people who first choose Jesus? First of all, whoever in history ever sought God? I thought it was God who came to seek and save the lost, and not the lost seeking God? That doesnt even make sense. Also, where's grace, i.e. undeserved and unmerited favor in all of this? How is God glorified in man being the final determiner in salvation? What scripture says that "salvation is of man's freewill?" Finally, look at John 10:26..."You do not believe because you are not of my flock." I supposed you would read that scripture as, "you arent my sheep because you do not believe." But, thats the opposite of what Jesus taught. We dont believe and thus become sheep, but rather we believe because we are sheep. I could be wrong though. Show me why from scripture alone, you dont see what I think is obvious predestination.

[Saved by Grace_06]

I'll try - others feel free to correct me if they think I am buthering the Arminian and/or Calvinist perspective (there are many variations - so this is a really broad overview). It goes something like this.

VERY GENERAL COMPARISON (Arminianism and Calvinism):

Similarities:

Both theologies affirm the doctrine of "total depravity" (i.e., man is inherently sinful and would not choose God without the assistance of the Holy Spirit, through God's grace, (they differ, however, in how God remedies this depravity).

Both theologies affirm that Christ's atonement is limited to the "elect' (they differ on how people become the "elect").

Differences:

Nature of election and grace:

Arminians believe that the Holy Spirit, through God's grace, restores our ability to choose ("free will") and we are therefore able to accept the gospel in faith, or reject it in unbelief. Calvinists believe that the Holy Spirit, through God's grace only falls upon those who are God's elect and this irresistibly leads to salvation (e.g., they will therefore come to faith in Christ as Lord and Saviour and be saved).

Who is Drawn To God:

Arminians believe that God, the Father, draws all to Jesus, but only those who choose to believe are saved (and are the elect). A variant on this is that God only draws the elect - but those are the ones whom God foreknew would choose Him (since God is timeless and can see into our hearts irrespective of limitations on time - so only the elect are drawn - the elect are determined in the beginning of time but based upon our exercise of free will which God foreknew). Calvinists believe that God, the Father, draws only the elect - having nothing to do, [necessarily] (I want to talk about that word "necessarily") with our choices or free will.

Keeping the Faith:

Arminians believe that salvation comes through faith alone, but that salvation is conditional on our maintaining that faith - eg. we choose whether to believe, so this is ongoing until death. Calvinists believe that once in faith (once saved) nothing can cause us to lose our faith (e.g., backsliding is an indication that there was never saving grace to begin with).

I hope that helps (and I hope I got it right!)

Regards


Thanks for the info. Some things at the begining werent accurate, but for the most part (towards the end) you had Arminain theology right. The whole issue stems from God's Foreknowledge. Does the scripture tell us "what" God foreknew people would do, e.g., believe, or does it simply tell us "who" God foreknew? If the scripture tells us that God saved people because he foreknew they would have faith, then the Arminians are right. But, if the Bible tells us that God foreknew people as in an intimate relationship with them, as he did with Jesus in 1Peter 1:20, or Israel in Amos 3:2, then Arminan theology falls way short.

[Mike]

From the text alone, what proof do you have that "those the Father gave Jesus" are people who first choose Jesus? That doesnt make sense. Where's grace? Also, look at John 10:26..."You do not believe because you are not of my flock." I supposed you would read that scripture as, "you arent my sheep because you do not believe." But, thats the opposite of what Jesus taught. We dont believe and thus become sheep, but rather we believe because we are sheep. I could be wrong though. Show me why from scripture alone, you dont see what I think is obvious predestination.
Well to me the point of the verses is Jesus thanking His Father for the ones that have been given Him.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

The sheep then are the ones who have come to Him.

-