Apostasy vs. Heresy

[Kliska]

I would like opinions on the differences between these two things (Apostasy and Heresy) and also opinions within those definitions on where we draw the line between them.

From dictionary.com

apostasy
a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.

heresy
1. opinion or doctrine at variance with the orthodox or accepted doctrine, esp. of a church or religious system.
2. the maintaining of such an opinion or doctrine.
3. Roman Catholic Church. the willful and persistent rejection of any article of faith by a baptized member of the church.
4. any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs, customs, etc.

So, according to this idea, all apostates would be heretics, but not all heretics are apostates. This jives with the RC POV as seen in the Catholic encyclopedia. Opinions on the line between the two? Who gets labelled apostate and who gets labelled a heretic? For protestants is there a meaningful difference?

[Kamatu]

That definition works for me.

Apostates are those who leave the faith (regardless of the faith, a Muslim who becomes a Christian is an apostate to Islam and vice versa).

Heretics are those who "remain in the faith" supposedly while promoting doctrines in violation of the holy writings of their faith. Heresy can be very subtle and the very best of the heresies, like the very best lies, are 99% orthodox truth. IMO, at their root you can always find Satan's best attack: "Is it true that God said?" One way to spot the Christian variety is either total dismissal of certain parts of Scripture or, more insidiously, the selected quoting of Scripture that ignores the contradictory passages.

One way I've seen this is in the "many ways to God" people with their often quote of the "many mansions" of John 14:2 while totally ignoring the "Way, Truth and Life" verse of John 14:6.

Edit for clarity: When I say "contradictory", I am not implying that Scripture contradicts itself, I am referring to the observed tactic example I used in the next paragraph where the heretic is setting up the contradiction.

[scrappergirl]

:think
hmmmm.
i get where you're going, but i don't have a clue how to get there.
but i'll be interested to see the responses from people who do.

[Kliska]

That definition works for me.

Apostates are those who leave the faith (regardless of the faith, a Muslim who becomes a Christian is an apostate to Islam and vice versa).

Interesting thoughts, thanks for weighing in! Yeah, that is what I pick up from the different definitions as well. If someone who claimed to be Christian then turns their back on the religion and denounces it, or proclaims it false, they would be considered Apostate, same with muslims as you said above.

Heretics are those who "remain in the faith" supposedly while promoting doctrines in violation of the holy writings of their faith. Heresy can be very subtle and the very best of the heresies, like the very best lies, are 99% orthodox truth. IMO, at their root you can always find Satan's best attack: "Is it true that God said?" One way to spot the Christian variety is either total dismissal of certain parts of Scripture or, more insidiously, the selected quoting of Scripture that ignores the contradictory passages.

One way I've seen this is in the "many ways to God" people with their often quote of the "many mansions" of John 14:2 while totally ignoring the "Way, Truth and Life" verse of John 14:6.

Those are good examples. It seems as if it would be more difficult for us today to point out "heresies" amidst all the differing interpretations of scriptures.

:thinking Perhaps one of the main ways we protestants could pinpoint heresy is if the teaching contradicts the common creeds of the denominations? Of course, I do believe in the guidance of the Holy Spirit in this on a personal basis, it's just interesting to try to "draw the line" (without committing a line drawing fallacy) between what would be a consensus in protestant circles between apostates and heretics...and what precisely would cross into heretical beliefs. (Not saying that we as humans are fit to judge, I'm just mulling it all over.)

Edit for clarity: When I say "contradictory", I am not implying that Scripture contradicts itself, I am referring to the observed tactic example I used in the next paragraph where the heretic is setting up the contradiction.

Gotcha.

[Kliska]

:think
hmmmm.
i get where you're going, but i don't have a clue how to get there.
but i'll be interested to see the responses from people who do.

:heh Join in if you have any thoughts, I'm just pondering, and decided to ask for opinions. People can post relevant scripture as well.

[scrappergirl]

kliska,
no thoughts here, just some vast emptiness. lol!

[Kliska]

kliska,
no thoughts here, just some vast emptiness. lol!

Oh, now, I doubt that. :)

Scripture and references I've looked up:

Heresy coming from the Greek Hairesis. According to Strongs, in these contexts we are probably looking at these definitions: a body of men following their own tenets (sect or party), of the Sadducees, of the Pharisees , of the Christians, dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aims. Translated "sect" five times and "heresy" four times in the KJV.

This is also an interesting reminder that Paul and Christians were considered heretics from the Jewish POV, and leads to the interesting exchange in Acts (Acts 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: ).

Acts 24:10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself: 11 Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship. 12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city: 13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. 14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. 16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

1 Cor 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies...

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

[JustinSolo]

Kliska, Interesting you should bring this up because just the other day I was looking into it based on what was happening in the Ravi thread.

Heresy is definitely a subset of apostasy, but I think heresy makes you apostate when it touches the doctrine of salvation. I do think though that if you believe a heretical teaching you are prone to continue believing more and eventually being lead to apostasy.

[Kliska]

Heresy is definitely a subset of apostasy, but I think heresy makes you apostate when it touches the doctrine of salvation. I do think though that if you believe a heretical teaching you are prone to continue believing more and eventually being lead to apostasy.

I do think that if one follows a heretical teaching and keeps following more and more that they could turn into an apostate, as you say. And, I do agree that the line has to be somewhere around "salvation" which is wrapped up in our understanding of God.

Interesting distinctions from the catholic encyclopedia for reference, coming from a RC source, the language is of course flavored that way, but it is still useful, and raises the question of protestant parrellels where we would differ:

"Heresy differs from apostasy. The apostate a fide abandons wholly the faith of Christ either by embracing Judaism, Islamism, Paganism, or simply by falling into naturalism and complete neglect of religion; the heretic always retains faith in Christ. Heresy also differs from schism. Schismatics, says St. Thomas, in the strict sense, are they who of their own will and intention separate themselves from the unity of the Church. The unity of the Church consists in the connection of its members with each other and of all the members with the head. Now this head is Christ whose representative in the Church is the supreme pontiff. And therefore the name of schismatics is given to those who will not submit to the supreme pontiff nor communicate with the members of the Church subject to him. Since the definition of Papal Infallibility, schism usually implies the heresy of denying this dogma. Heresy is opposed to faith; schism to charity; so that, although all heretics are schismatics because loss of faith involves separation from the Church, not all schismatics are necessarily heretics, since a man may, from anger, pride, ambition, or the like, sever himself from the communion of the Church and yet believe all the Church proposes for our belief (II-II, Q. xxix, a. 1). Such a one, however, would be more properly called rebellious than heretical."

[seekingtruth1]

I think people refer to folks as apostate when their heresies pave the way to apostasy. Its a process...so your defn work for me as well. Perhaps teh word apostate is used too liberally, but I think a teaching within the church can be a heresy and apostate. So perhaps the object you are referring to matters as well.

I agree with the other Poster that if its a heretical view of the Atonement/Salvation its apostate period. Whereas if its a view that woman can be head pastors of churches, some would say that is heretical but its not IMO apostate.

I also think that the great confusion comes in folks like Rob BEll who state they belive in the inerrancy of Scripture but completely twist it to give another meaning, denying the need for the atonement thereby hijacking the Christain moniker and redefining it.....

I certainly woudl say he fits the bill of one who is an apostate.