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Surrender
March 3rd, 2008, 01:58 AM
Reconciled – restored relationship

Rom 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
5:11
And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Rom 11:11
I say then, they (Israel) did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression (“fall”) salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
11:12
Now if their transgression (“fall”) is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
11:13
But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch * then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
11:14
if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
11:15
For if their rejection (“being cast away”) is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead ?

2 Cor 5:18
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
5:19
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
5:20
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Col 1:19
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
1:20
and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
1:21
And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
1:22
yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach --

Eph 2:11
Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision " by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands --
2:12
remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world….
2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
2:15
by abolishing in His flesh the enmity , which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
2:16
and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity .

Rom 11:30
For just as you (Gentiles) once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their (unbelieving Israel who fell & were cast away) disobedience,
11:31
so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they (unbelieving Israel) also may now be shown mercy.
11:32
For God has shut up all in disobedience (“unbelief”) so that He may show mercy to all.


1) Gentiles (called uncircumcision/heathen) were enemies & excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, the covenants of promise and were without God, but now are reconciled through the cross
2) Israel (circumcision) was not enemies & excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, the covenants of promise and without God until after they were cast away & concluded in unbelief along with the Gentiles (uncircumcision)
3) Because of the fall of Israel and their being “cast away”, reconciliation has come to the world (heathen – which now includes all men, Jew & Gentile alike)
4) Although Gentiles receive reconciliation because of Israel’s fall, unbelieving/fallen Israel, too, is shown mercy along with Gentiles because God has shut up all in disobedience (“unbelief”) [their (unbelieving Israel) broken relationship through their unbelief may now also become restored through reconciliation].
5) They (unbelieving Israel) are not restored as a nation, because they are equally heathen and unbelieving as Gentiles and there is no group distinctions made at this time. They along with Gentiles are reconciled into One Body.

Conclusion:
Since the world receives the offer of reconciliation (“be reconciled with God”) because of Israel’s fall, when Israel is restored as an exalted nation, this offer of reconciliation will no longer be available.

Questions:
In what way, then, will the Gentiles be reconciled to a restored relationship with God in the tribulation for those of you who are pre-trib.? (Since there will be no “One Body” in which to reconcile them into)

In what way, then, will the Gentiles be reconciled to a restored relationship with God in the Mill. Kingdom?

Paidfor
March 3rd, 2008, 12:34 PM
Conclusion:
Since the world receives the offer of reconciliation (“be reconciled with God”) because of Israel’s fall, when Israel is restored as an exalted nation, the offer of reconciliation will no longer be available.

Questions:
In what way, then, will the Gentiles be reconciled to a restored relationship with God in the tribulation for those of you who are pre-trib.? (Since there will be no “One Body” in which to reconcile them into)

In what way, then, will the Gentiles be reconciled to a restored relationship with God in the Mill. Kingdom?

Where in scripture does it say that the offer of reconciliation through Christ will be taken away upon the restoration of Israel?

Surrender
March 3rd, 2008, 01:36 PM
Where in scripture does it say that the offer of reconciliation through Christ will be taken away upon the restoration of Israel?The above scriptures show that the reconciliation described by Paul could not have been offered to the heathen (Gentiles & Jews & all men) with Israel in an exalted position. For one thing, in an exalted position, they are no longer considered heathens without God. It is only through their fall that reconciliation into One Body could be offered. The Body will reach its fullness and Israel will be exalted again in the future. When this happens, in what way will Gentiles have the opportunity to be reconciled to God?

goinghome
March 3rd, 2008, 05:04 PM
That doesn't mean gentiles cannot be reconciled. The fact that Israel sort of temporarily lost their opportunity opened the door up for the gentiles. That's what those verses are saying. When Israel is once again the focus during the tribulation period, the opportunity will not be lifted from gentiles. There's one door to salvation, Jesus Christ. The Jews were the intended recipients, they rejected Him, Gentiles got to be included, Jews eyes were blinded as a result of their rejection of Him, during the Tribulation all will still have the opportunity for salvation, but the Jews will be the focus of that time period.

blitzkreig
March 3rd, 2008, 05:40 PM
Gentiles who survive the 7 year Tribulation enter the Kingdom on the basis of their treatment of Israel during the period of their testing ... (see Sheep Goat Judgment in Matthew 25).

The Goats are then "cast into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". FWIW this closely parallels what happens to the uninvited guest who came to the wedding without proper apparel.

.

Surrender
March 3rd, 2008, 06:50 PM
Gentiles who survive the 7 year Tribulation enter the Kingdom on the basis of their treatment of Israel during the period of their testing ... (see Sheep Goat Judgment in Matthew 25).

The Goats are then "cast into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". FWIW this closely parallels what happens to the uninvited guest who came to the wedding without proper apparel.

.Interesting.

So, after the Body is taken up, is Israel once again placed in a position of exaltation where she is now responsible for the gospel message going out to the world? (i.e. is that why the 144K are sent out as bondservants of God?). IOW, will the gospel message be the responsibility of believing Israel alone while Gentiles do not have the "same" honor and responsibility (as we all do during this time)?

Will the gentile sheep be "born again"? If so, does this happen during the trib. or just before they enter the MK? If not, did their being kind to His brethren "reconcile" them to God without them needing to be "born again"?

Also,

When did Israel fall? Before or after the cross? If after, how long after? Do you see a time indicator in scripture? If before, same question.

blitzkreig
March 3rd, 2008, 09:41 PM
Interesting.

So, after the Body is taken up, is Israel once again placed in a position of exaltation where she is now responsible for the gospel message going out to the world? (i.e. is that why the 144K are sent out as bondservants of God?). IOW, will the gospel message be the responsibility of believing Israel alone while Gentiles do not have the "same" honor and responsibility (as we all do during this time)? The Tribulation is the "time of Jacobs trouble". Israel's trouble. 2/3 of them are killed off in one way or another.

If you think of the 2,000 years since Israel has been "aside" and God is dealing with the Gentiles and Jews with no distinction as a GIANT PAUSE in the prophetic time clock ... and when it is time (sometime after the Rapture) God indeed does turn again and deals with Israel as a Nation. Turning then FROM the Gentile as the Gentile dealing was to make Israel jealous. Sad as it is ... it seems to me that the Gentile gets about the same treatment as was the case before the cross. Not much.

Will the gentile sheep be "born again"? If so, does this happen during the trib. or just before they enter the MK? If not, did their being kind to His brethren "reconcile" them to God without them needing to be "born again"? No they do not become "born again" as in "baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ" ... the Body of Christ is complete.

Now that said ... they are "Saved" ... as in the same terms of reference which were used in the Old Testament ... they are permitted entry into the Kingdom. So long as they believe they live ... Justice is rather swift during this time as it is said it will be with a "rod of iron" ... so one wouldn't want to find them selves on the wrong side of the law. The Law being the "super enhanced" version of the Law which Christ spoke of in "the Sermon on the Mount" (Matt. 5). Quite different than "grace" in that it is meritorious.

Also,

When did Israel fall? Before or after the cross? If after, how long after? Do you see a time indicator in scripture? If before, same question. It wasn't "at the cross" as most people would immediately believe ... but Christ forgave them didn't he?

"Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do"

The offer was open to Israel as was apparent by Peter's sermon in Acts 2-3. He called on them to "repent" and promised that Jesus would return ...

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
(Act 3:19-20)"

No although it is argued just when the "point of no return was crossed" I believe it to be at the "Stoning of Stephen". The actual offer however as was documented in the Scriputres continued until Acts 28 ... when Paul gave up in disgust.

:hat

Surrender
March 3rd, 2008, 10:37 PM
The Tribulation is the "time of Jacobs trouble". Israel's trouble. 2/3 of them are killed off in one way or another.

If you think of the 2,000 years since Israel has been "aside" and God is dealing with the Gentiles and Jews with no distinction as a GIANT PAUSE in the prophetic time clock ... and when it is time (sometime after the Rapture) God indeed does turn again and deals with Israel as a Nation. Turning then FROM the Gentile as the Gentile dealing was to make Israel jealous. Sad as it is ... it seems to me that the Gentile gets about the same treatment as was the case before the cross. Not much.So you would agree that Israel is the exalted or chosen nation during the tribulation? Similar to her position before her fall?

No they do not become "born again" as in "baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ" ... the Body of Christ is complete.But do they become “born again” as in what Jesus required of Nicodemus in John 3 in order to enter into the kingdom of God? I’m not talking about entering into the MK but the everlasting (eternal life) kingdom. At some point, don’t they have to become “born again” (John 3) in order to enter into eternal life?

Now that said ... they are "Saved" ... as in the same terms of reference which were used in the Old Testament ... they are permitted entry into the Kingdom. So long as they believe they live ... Justice is rather swift during this time as it is said it will be with a "rod of iron" ... so one wouldn't want to find them selves on the wrong side of the law. The Law being the "super enhanced" version of the Law which Christ spoke of in "the Sermon on the Mount" (Matt. 5). Quite different than "grace" in that it is meritorious.So are you saying your understanding is that if they endure through their life believing, they are granted eternal life (born again)?

It wasn't "at the cross" as most people would immediately believe ... but Christ forgave them didn't he?

"Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do"

The offer was open to Israel as was apparent by Peter's sermon in Acts 2-3. He called on them to "repent" and promised that Jesus would return ...

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
(Act 3:19-20)"

No although it is argued just when the "point of no return was crossed" I believe it to be at the "Stoning of Stephen". The actual offer however as was documented in the Scriputres continued until Acts 28 ... when Paul gave up in disgust.

:hatSo, would you say that between the cross & say… Acts 28ish is similar to what we will see during the tribulation in terms of how the 144K & converts will approach their unsaved brethren?

Clouds
March 5th, 2008, 07:39 PM
So you would agree that Israel is the exalted or chosen nation during the tribulation? Similar to her position before her fall?

But do they become “born again” as in what Jesus required of Nicodemus in John 3 in order to enter into the kingdom of God? I’m not talking about entering into the MK but the everlasting (eternal life) kingdom. At some point, don’t they have to become “born again” (John 3) in order to enter into eternal life?

So are you saying your understanding is that if they endure through their life believing, they are granted eternal life (born again)?


My understanding of the term "born again" is God giving a person the gift of spiritual awakening. This awakening is the same thing as salvation in effect. You do not "endure" to receive it or earn it in any way of yourself. It is entirely a gift of God's mercy and grace.

You must have this spiritual awakening before you die or are judged before God.

In this dispensation, being born again includes the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which makes those indwelt a member of Christ's Body known as the True Church.

Other dispensations did not include such a permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which could not happen until Jesus died, rose again, and went to the Father. Pentecost marks the beginning of today's True Church. Anyone who says that Israel had such a permanent indwelling before Pentecost is being inventive with Scripture.

Future dispensations mention a sealing on the forehead by God of those who are saved (born again). The argument that this is the same thing as being indwelt as we now are also seems invented to me, unless someone can point out such indwelling.

I sense from Scripture that the Holy Spirit came upon the saved in the past, but not in a permanent indwelling sense. It may be the same way in the MK dispensation. Those saved (born again) then will also have God's laws written upon their hearts to do God's Will.

blitzkreig
March 5th, 2008, 11:46 PM
So you would agree that Israel is the exalted or chosen nation during the tribulation? Similar to her position before her fall? More than similar ... the very same one. Under the extreme pressure of persecution such as the world has never seen ... even during the holocaust.

But do they become “born again” as in what Jesus required of Nicodemus in John 3 in order to enter into the kingdom of God? I’m not talking about entering into the MK but the everlasting (eternal life) kingdom. At some point, don’t they have to become “born again” (John 3) in order to enter into eternal life?I was speaking of the MK as that is what the OT scriptures describe. Become "born again" ... no ... no more that John the Baptist was "born again". Remember that he died before the cross ...

So are you saying your understanding is that if they endure through their life believing, they are granted eternal life (born again)? I wouldn't equate the granting of eternal life exclusively with being "born again". OT saints from Adam to the time right up to the foot of the cross will be in heaven ... but never had the opportunity to be "born again". Regenerated yes...

So, would you say that between the cross & say… Acts 28ish is similar to what we will see during the tribulation in terms of how the 144K & converts will approach their unsaved brethren?The Pentecostal first generation Christian would fit right into the MK.

But the 7 years will be neither like the Body of Christ nor the MK.

The 144K & converts (as you put it) on the one hand ... and another great band of Israel who hold out even until the very last under the protection of God they cry out for the return of the Messiah. That cry ushers in the return of the Lord.

During that 7 year period of time ... the Bible is not very specific as to what the Gentile will be doing. A lot of them will be dying of course. But the activity of the Holy Spirit as we have come to know it is gone ... back to what it was during the OT period. Almost all prophecy about this period of time deals with Israel and not the Gentiles. The only mention about Gentiles is as a result of when they are interacting some how with Israel.

Put it this way ...

2Co 6:2 For He says, "In an acceptable time I heard you, and in a day of salvation, I helped you;" Behold, now is the accepted time. Behold, now is the day of salvation.

I wouldn't put off making peace with God until the Tribulation ... counting on some kind of "second chance" after the Rapture. It doesn't look like an attractive option ... possible I suppose ... but not "likely".

.