Acts 8 Why wasnt the Spirit given when they believed?

[theroc]

18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money 19and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

When someone repents they are baptized by the Spirit with fire, here it seems though they were not baptized by the spirit until the laying on of hands....any help?

[theroc]

Acts 1:2 giving orders by the Holy Spirit to the apostles
Acts 1:5 you indeed will be baptized with the Holy Spirit
Acts 1:8 you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you
Acts 1:16 the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold
Acts 2:4 they all were filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak
Acts 2:4 in other tongues as the Spirit was enabling them to speak
Acts 2:17 I WILL POUR OUT FROM MY SPIRIT UPON ALL FLESH
Acts 2:18 IN THOSE DAYS I WILL POUR OUT FROM MY SPIRIT
Acts 2:33 having received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit
Acts 2:38 you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit
Acts 4:8 Peter, having been filled with the Holy Spirit
Acts 4:25 said by the Holy Spirit from the mouth of your servant David
Acts 4:31 they all were filled with the Holy Spirit
Acts 5:3 why has Satan filled your heart that you lied to the Holy Spirit
Acts 5:9 Why was it agreed with you to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?
Acts 5:32 the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.
Acts 6:3 filled with the Spirit and wisdom
Acts 6:5 Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit
Acts 6:10 they were unable to stand up to the wisdom and the Spirit
Acts 7:51 you always indeed resist the Holy Spirit!
Acts 7:55 But being filled with the Holy Spirit
Acts 8:15 prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit
Acts 8:17 they were receiving the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:18 the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands,
Acts 8:19 the one on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:29 And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go and join this chariot.”
Acts 8:39 the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away
Acts 9:17 you should regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 9:31 proceeding in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit,
Acts 10:19 the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you.”
Acts 10:38 God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and power,
Acts 10:44 the Holy Spirit fell upon all who were hearing the message.
Acts 10:45 the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out upon the Gentiles.
Acts 10:47 who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did
Acts 11:12 the Spirit told me to go with them without hesitating
Acts 11:15 when I began to speak the Holy Spirit fell upon them
Acts 11:16 you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 11:24 he was a good man and full of the Holy Spirit and faith.

So now I think I understand it lol
Basically this is showing a transition time, where the Holy Spirit was starting to pour out from heaven. It began with the apostles (which also showed the gentiles and samerians that they needed to follow them) but we see it evolves/transitions to the Spirit baptizing once you believe as we see in acts 11

[blitzkreig]

The whole of the book of Acts is a book of transition. There was a time in which an overt act of "hands" was necessary for the receipt of the Holy Spirit ... not by just anyone by the way ... but by an Apostle.

By the time of the salvation of Cornelius Peter had not so much as entered the house and Cornelius was filled with the Holy Spirit. Peter had to run to catch up ...

.

[Biblenuggetlady]

Re: Acts 8:9 I just want to make a side note, this verse was posted in another thread today...but it needs to be pointed out that the "Simon" mentioned here was not the Apostle. This Simon was a sorcerer in the city who "bewitched the people". He wanted to learn what the apostles were doing in order to increase his own glory and get back the followers he was losing to this "new faith". His conversion was not real.

As for "why the laying on of hands":

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/comm_read.pl?book=Act&chapter=8&verse=9&Comm=Comm%2Fjfb%2FAct%2FAct008.html%2341402%26JF+% 5E%26B&Select.x=33&Select.y=7

15, 16. prayed . . . they might receive the Holy Ghost. (For only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus)--As the baptism of adults presupposed "the renewing of the Holy Ghost" ( Tts 3:5-7 1Cr 12:13 ), of which the profession of faith had to be taken for evidence, this communication of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the apostles' hands was clearly a superadded thing; and as it was only occasional, so it was invariably attended with miraculous manifestations (see Act 10:44 , where it followed Peter's preaching; and Act 19:1-7 , where, as here, it followed the laying on of hands). In the present case an important object was served by it--"the sudden appearance of a body of baptized disciples in Samaria, by the agency of one who was not an apostle, requiring the presence and power of apostles to perform their special part as the divinely appointed founders of the Church" [ALFORD]. Beautiful, too, was the spectacle exhibited of Jew and Samaritan, one in Christ.

[harvest]

The laying of the hands was not for the Holy Spirit, but for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It has nothing to do with receiving the Holy Spirit, because when you receive Christ the Holy Spirit comes in you.

To understand the text whenever it speaks of the Holy Spirit, you need to look at the Greek preposition.
Para- means "with"
En- means "in"
Epi- means "upon"
The Holy Spirit is "para"(or with you) and points you to Christ for salvation. Once you receive Jesus then the Holy Spirit is "en"(or in you). Next is to be baptized by the Holy Spirit, which is "epi"(or upon, overflowing).

Look back at John 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you(Greek "para") and will be in you(Greek "en").

Also...
Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you(Greek "epi"); and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

The answer to your question in Acts 8:18-19 can be found in Acts 8:16, where you see the word used is "epi"(or upon). So this is in reference to Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and not the Holy Spirit coming into the believer.

[Mitsy]

2CO 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2CO 5:5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

RO 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

1CO 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

TIT 3:3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

[harvest]

2CO 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2CO 5:5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

RO 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

1CO 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

TIT 3:3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

:thumb

[harvest]

By the way, I heard a pastor use a great analogy of understanding the Holy Spirit.

He said, "Think of the Holy Spirit as a pitcher of water next to an empty glass. The Spirit is with you at this time as a non-believer. When you receive Christ, the water is poured into the glass so the Spirit is now in you. When you are baptised of the Holy Spirit then the water is poured into the glass until it is overflowing."

[Semachiah]

Shalom,

Look back at the life of the man Y'SHUA and you will gain an understanding of The HOLY SPIRIT.
Jn 1:29. The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and he said, “Behold the Lamb of God, the One Who takes away the sin of the world. 30. This is concerning Whom I said, ‘A man is coming after me Who was before me, because He is more prominent than I.’ 31. And I had not known Him, but, so that He would be revealed to Israel through this, I came baptizing in water.” 32. And John testified, saying that “I had seen the Spirit descending from heaven as a dove and it was staying on Him. 33. And I would not have known Him, but the One Who sent me to baptize in water, that One said to me ‘Upon whomever you would see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, He is the One Who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34. And I saw and I had borne witness that this One is the Son of God.” PNT (Power New Testament (http://www.treeoflifeinc.org/letschat/index.php/topic,1484.0/prev_next,prev.html#new))
Y'SHUA was born of The SPIRIT but He was not born "as a witness" of YHVH at that point. At the point of His birth He was like a "Born Again" believer. Then when He is baptized by John the Baptist The HOLY SPIRIT descends and STAYS with Him. At this point, the ministry YHVH has for Him begins, at this point He is ready to be a "witness" of YHVH just as He declares will happen to His disciples after they tarry in Jerusalem...
Acts 1:8. but you will take power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the outermost part of the earth. PNT
... and of course this does happen in...
Acts 2:1. And when the day of Shavuot had come they were all in one place together. 2. And a sound came suddenly out of heaven as bringing a violent wind and it filled the whole house where they were sitting 3. and dividing tongues like fire were seen by them and the flames sat upon each one of them, 4. and all were filled by the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages just as the Spirit was giving them to speak out boldly. PNT

The timing of the manifestations of The HOLY SPIRIT is totally up to YHVH! In Acts 8 (http://www.treeoflifeinc.org/letschat/index.php/topic,1508.0/prev_next,next.html#new) with the new birth of the Ethiopian eunuch although The HOLY SPIRIT is there the eunuch shows no manifestation of The SPIRIT.
In Acts 9 (http://www.treeoflifeinc.org/letschat/index.php/topic,1507.0/prev_next,next.html#new) Saul/Paul is baptized in The SPIRIT but he does not speak in tongues at that point but has scales of darkness fall from his eyes.
Then as pointed out above in another post, The SPIRIT falls upon the members of Cornelius' house at the simple testimony of Y'SHUA and Y'SHUA crucified (1 Cor 2:2 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr002.html#top)) KJV

Y'SHUA shows, at another point, the separation of baptisms when He states...
Jn 20:21. Then Jesus said to them again “Peace be with you: just as the Father sent Me, so I am sending you.” 22. And after He said this He breathed upon them and said to them, “You must immediately take the Holy Spirit: PNT
...and yet as earlier mentioned then He tells them to wait for the outpouring of The HOLY SPIRIT as we saw in Acts 1:8.

Therefore we can conclude two things from this that I have already stated,
1) there are two baptisms in The SPIRIT (one for the new birth and one to start the ministry that YHVH has given you through the sacrifice of His Lamb, Y'SHUA),
2) the timing is YHVH's!

[iSong6:3]

Semachiah -

I've always understood that a man couldn't be a Rabbi then until the age of 30, just like Yeshua/Jesus was. So it wasn't *random*, really.

Before that time, though, Jesus was so full of the Spirit of God that He amazed scholars in the synagogue at the age of 12, for example. To me, that doesn't fit with what you're saying in the above.

Also, you seemed to make a point of saying "the man Yeshua" before His mikveh/baptism. Did I just read too much into that?

We know that Jesus was "fully man and fully God". Do you think He was always fully man but only gradually and increasingly became fully God? :scratch

That the dove descended on Him at the start of his public ministry is to me only symbolic that the Holy Spirit was with Him. In the same way, the Father spoke from heaven that Jesus was His Son.

Was the Father only then accepting Jesus as His Son? No. Was the Holy Spirit only then filling Him? No.