“Saved” ... OT ...

[blitzkreig]

Someone brought it up in another thread ... so I have a question. A couple questions really so I will be asking in two different threads.

Please explain to this old guy what it says in the Old Testament (have to stick to the OT now ... no cheating) about what it took ... under the Law ... to be “reconciled with God”?

I say "reconciled with God" and not "saved" to avoid any confusion as saved, as we know it today, was not clearly defined in the Old Testament.


Jew OR Gentile.

So I am interested in opinions here. Has to be from the Exodus from Egypt time (lets say Kadish Barnia) ... until Malachi. Under the Law of Moses.


Use of the Gospels while technically being a part of the Old Testament ... is because of its unique time while the Lord walked the earth not what I am looking for.

Just to get it started now ... Abraham was not under the Law of Moses as he lived hundreds of years before Moses was born ...

Scripture is fundamental proof. As this is Bible Study Forum it would be nice to get some ...



:hat

[Robbinson]

Faith, repentance and sacrafice. God's salvation plan has never changed. You will find that throughout the Old Testatement and reinforced in the New Testatement.

Faith in the Old Testatement was in God and the coming of the Messiah. Faith in the New Testatement is in Christ, our Lord and saviour.

In the Old and New Testatement - repentance was/is repentance from sin.

In the Old Testatement, sacrafice was defined before Mount Sinai (you can see it in Genesis starting the Garden of Eden and highlighted in Abraham's near sacrafice of his only son - forshadowing the ultimate sacrafice. The "law" around sacrafice was codified and elaborated in the "Law" given to Moses on Mount Sinai (Leviticus principally). Christ then became our one and only ultimate sacrafice, fulfilling and superceding the levitical animal sacraficial system.

But again - even today, salavation/reconcillation with God comes through Faith (faith in Christ as Lord and Saviour), repentance (you can't really have faith in Christ without repentance of sin - something forgotten in today's propserity gospel) and sacrafice - accepting Christ's ultimate sacrafice for our sins.

Regards,

[Galoutofdixie]

Reconciliation appears 4 times in the old testement. For the word/term, "Reconciliation":

Definition:
Printed from the Blue Letter Bible


Lexicon Results for kaphar (Strong's H3722)
Hebrew for H3722
כפר Transliteration

kaphar
Pronunciation

kä·far' (Key)

Part of Speech

verb

Root Word (Etymology)

a primitive root

TWOT Reference

1023,1024,102


Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch

a) (Qal) to coat or cover with pitch

b) (Piel)

1) to cover over, pacify, propitiate

2) to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for

3) to cover over, atone for sin and persons by legal rites

c) (Pual)

1) to be covered over

2) to make atonement for

d) (Hithpael) to be covered

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 102
AV — atonement 71, purge 7, reconciliation 4, reconcile 3, forgive 3, purge away 2, pacify 2, atonement...made 2, merciful 2, cleansed 1, disannulled 1, appease 1, put off 1, pardon 1, pitch 1


Lev 8:15 And he slew 07819 [it]; and Moses 04872 took 03947 the blood 01818, and put 05414 [it] upon the horns 07161 of the altar 04196 round about 05439 with his finger 0676, and purified 02398 the altar 04196, and poured 03332 the blood 01818 at the bottom 03247 of the altar 04196, and sanctified 06942 it, to make reconciliation 03722 upon it.


Eze 45:15 And one 0259 lamb 07716 out of the flock 06629, out of two hundred 03967, out of the fat pastures 04945 of Israel 03478; for a meat offering 04503, and for a burnt offering 05930, and for peace offerings 08002, to make reconciliation 03722 for them, saith 05002 the Lord 0136 GOD 03069.


Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part 05387 [to give] burnt offerings 05930, and meat offerings 04503, and drink offerings 05262, in the feasts 02282, and in the new moons 02320, and in the sabbaths 07676, in all solemnities 04150 of the house 01004 of Israel 03478: he shall prepare 06213 the sin offering 02403, and the meat offering 04503, and the burnt offering 05930, and the peace offerings 08002, to make reconciliation 03722 for the house 01004 of Israel 03478.


Dan 9:24 Seventy 07657 weeks 07620 are determined 02852 upon thy people 05971 and upon thy holy 06944 city 05892, to finish 03607 the transgression 06588, and to make an end 08552 02856 of sins 02403, and to make reconciliation 03722 for iniquity 05771, and to bring in 0935 everlasting 05769 righteousness 06664, and to seal up 02856 the vision 02377 and prophecy 05030, and to anoint 04886 the most 06944 Holy 06944.

So, it appears that all reconciliation comes by "propitiation" through sacrifice. Another interesting thing that I came accross while studying the term reconcilliation was this:

The word "atonement" does not occur in the New Testament; the word in Rom. 5:11 is "reconciliation".

The beginning of the subject of Propitiation is found far back in the Bible, back to the designing of the Tabernacle in the wilderness, the tent which God had the people of Israel set up which would be the center of His presence on earth.

The Tabernacle occupies a large portion of Scripture, sixteen chapters in the book of Exodus and the whole book of Leviticus. Every feature of the Tabernacle, of the worship carried out there, of the priestly life and duties, of the vestments of the priests, the sacrifices, the feast days--every feature was vitally important and designed by the Lord for eternal purposes. It is very important for the Church Age believer to have a good working knowledge of the Levitical system in order to appreciate fully the work of Christ and the plan of God as they have been instituted in the world.

There was great stress on the blueprint of the Tabernacle.

Exodus 25:8,9 "And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. According to all that I show thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it."

The pattern was given to Moses on Mt. Sinai, along with The Law. READ Hebrews 8:1*p;6. The Tabernacle was a symbolical expression of spiritual truth.The congregation of the Jews did not go beyond the courtyard of the tabernacle. They made offerings only at the brazen altar; and only the priests were allowed to go anyplace else in the Tabernacle. The Tabernacle was the dwelling place of God on earth, and God was unapproachable by sinful men. The main lessons being taught had to do with the perfection of God and the sinfulness of man.
The Furniture of the Tabernacle
Brazen Altar -- this altar was the beginning of a person's approach to God. Animal sacrifices made there taught that substitutionary sacrifice is the first step toward fellowship with God. When a person passed outside the gate of the Tabernacle, the only thing that he could see was the smoke rising from the burnt offerings, and through the one gate could be seen the altar of sacrifice and the blood being shed. Everything else was hidden from view by the curtain of the fence. This was a continuous reminder of "the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world." The only thing the unbeliever can ever see is the Gospel, the good news of Christ's substitutionary sacrifice for us.

A description of the brazen altar is found in Ex. 27:1*p;8 and Ex. 38:17.

The Laver -- Here the priests cleaned their hands and arms before performing any service or act of worship (Ex. 30:17). It was placed between the brazen altar and the tent of worship (the Holy Place). This cleansing symbolized the spiritual cleansing which is essential to both worship and service.

The Candlesticks -- These illustrated the need for illumination, the Light of the World. See Ex. 25:31*p;40; 37:17*p;34.

The Table of Bread -- An illustration of the need for spiritual food. See Ex. 25:23*p;30; 37:10*p;16.

The Altar of Incense -- From Ex. 30:1*p;10, this piece of Tabernacle furniture illustrated the need for acceptable worship and prayer. No animals were offered on this altar. The offering was an incense offering, indicating that which is pleasing to God, Divine Good (gold, silver, and precious stones). The fire for the altar of incense came from the brazen altar, indicating that worship can only come after salvation. No strange fire was allowed; and Nadab and Abihu died for disobeying this rule.

Only the High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies, and that only once a year on the day of atonement, to offer the blood on the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant.

The Ark of the Covenant -- the Ark of the Covenant was located in the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle. It was made of acacia wood and overlaid with gold. Its dimensions were 50 inches long by 30 inches wide by 30 inches deep. The Ark was a picture of Christ bearing our sins, the box part representing Christ. The wood illustrated the humanity of Christ, the gold represented His deity.

Inside the Ark were three objects representing sin (Num. 17:8,10; Heb. 9:4). The Tables of the Law represented sin in the sense of violation or transgression of God's order. The Pot of Manna represented rejection of God's provision. And Aaron's Rod represented revolt against God's authority.

Over the top of the box was a lid of solid gold, the Mercy Seat (or throne). Over each end of the Mercy Seat was a gold cherub, the highest ranking angel. The first cherub represented the absolute Righteousness of God, and the second cherub represented the Justice of God. Together they represented the Holiness of God. The cherubs faced toward each other, wings outstretched towards each other, and looked down at the Mercy Seat. "Righteousness" looks down and condemns (Rom. 3:23). "Justice" looks down and assesses a penalty.

Once a year, on the Day of Atonement, the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies twice; once to make atonement for his own sins, and then to do so for the people. He sprinkled blood from the sacrifice on the Ark, on the top of the Mercy Seat, between the cherubs. This was a graphic illustration of God's grace provision for sin. "Righteousness" looks at the blood of the animal, which represents the spiritual death of Christ on the Cross, His substitutionary atonement, and is satisfied. "Justice" looks at the blood and is satisfied that the penalty paid for sin was sufficient, teaching that Christ was judged and paid the penalty for us.

Therefore, the Ark speaks of Redemption - Christ paid for our sins, paid our ransom, to purchase us from the slave market of sin.

So we have in the Ark and the Mercy Seat a picture of God's satisfaction with the Work of Jesus Christ known as Propitiation.

Now, the Hebrew word for Mercy Seat is kapporeth. The Greek word used in the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament is hilasterion. This same Greek word is found in the New Testament in Rom. 3:25; Heb. 9:5; 1 John 2:2; and 4:10. and is translated "mercy seat" or "place of propitiation". So there is a direct relationship between the Mercy Seat in the Tabernacle and the doctrine of Propitiation.

Because of Propitiation, God is free to love the believer without compromising either His Righteousness or Justice. The thought in the Old Testament sacrifices and in the New Testament fulfillment is that Christ completely satisfied the just demands of a holy God for judgment of sin.

Propitiation is not the placating of a vengeful God; but it is, rather, the satisfying of the righteousness of a holy God making it possible for Him to show mercy without compromise. Propitiation demonstrates the consistency of God's character in saving the worst sinners. Propitiation reconciles man to God. This means that sin is no longer the issued between man and God. The only issue, both for the Old Testament and New Testament believers, is "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved." http://www.realtime.net/~wdoud/topics/barrier.html

[Galoutofdixie]

Torrey's New Topical Textbook
Made by Sacrifice
Atonement, under the Law:

Lev 1:4,5

Lev 1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. Lev 1:5 And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that [is by] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.


By Priests Alone
Atonement, under the Law:

1Ch 6:49; 2Ch 29:24

1Ch 6:49 But Aaron and his sons offered upon the altar of the burnt offering, and on the altar of incense, [and were appointed] for all the work of the [place] most holy, and to make an atonement for Israel, according to all that Moses the servant of God had commanded.

2Ch 29:24 And the priests killed them, and they made reconciliation with their blood upon the altar, to make an atonement for all Israel: for the king commanded [that] the burnt offering and the sin offering [should be made] for all Israel.


Necessary For
Atonement, under the Law:

Propitiating God

Exd 32:30; Lev 23:27,28; 2Sa 21:3

Ransoming

Exd 30:15,16; Job 33:24

Purifying

Exd 29:36


Offered For
Atonement, under the Law:

The congregation

Num 15:25; 2Ch 29:24

The priests

Exd 29:31-33; Lev 8:34

Persons sinning ignorantly

Lev 4:20-35

Persons sinning wilfully

Lev 6:7

Persons swearing rashly

Lev 5:4,6

Persons withholding evidence

Lev 5:1,6

Persons unclean

Lev 5:2,3,6

Women after childbirth

Lev 12:8

The altar

Exd 29:36,37; Lev 16:18,19

The holy place

Lev 16:16,17

The healed leper

Lev 14:18

The leprous house healed

Lev 14:53


Extraordinary Cases Of
Atonement, under the Law:

Exd 32:30-34; Num 16:47; 25:10-13

[blitzkreig]

Just a note…

Without a doubt God has a Judicial right to provide Justification on the basis of Vicarious Substitutionary sacrifice. If the issue was “how Soteriologically” … the answer would clearly be “it’s all about the blood”. He couldn’t do it without the blood … if He could have it would have been easy to simply be merciful an not send your Son to die an unjust death.

The question of God’s ability is not the question.

God in each Dispensation has required different things of different generations in the manor of that generation relating to God. These requirements must be followed.

God seemingly didn’t deal with individuals in the OT under the Law in the manor in which we know He does today. At least it is not clear that he did by reading of the Scriptures. He had a "Chosen People".

I will use an example (although not under the Law of Moses so treat this as an aside as it deals with a different Dispensation than the one in question).

Cain’s sacrifice was rejected and Able’s was accepted. God had one way to relate to Him period. Obviously they had been instructed in the right way of relating to God. Veggies were not the way …

There is no question that Cain believed in God. But "belief "wasn’t the requirement in how God wanted to be related to in Cain's day ... Different dispensation than today ...


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[Robbinson]

Just a note…

There is no question that Cain believed in God. But "belief "wasn’t the requirement in how God wanted to be related to in Cain's day ... Different dispensation than today ...


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Hi - as you can surmise from my post/reply, I don't agree with this last statement. How do you know that "belief" or "faith" was not required? I think when you read through the entire Old Testatement, it becomes clear that in Old Testatement times we needed each of faith, repentance and sacrafice - not just sacrafice, not just faith and/or not just repentance. Interestingly - this remains true today. We say salvation comes through "faith" alone - but faith in Christ (saving Faith) is not possible without repentance from sin - and that Faith includes acceptance of Christ's sacrafice for our sins.

The prior posts focused on sacrafice per Leviticus, etc - and clearly atonement required sacrafice and the "blood" - but sacrafice alone was never sufficient - scripture tells us that sacrafice without faith and reptentance is not acceptable to God.

Hos 6:6 "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings":

Ezek 18:30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. "

2 Ch 20:20 "Have faith in the Lord your God and you will be upheld; have faith in his prophets and you will be successful."

[Biblenuggetlady]

:thumb Robbinson: The prior posts focused on sacrafice per Leviticus, etc - and clearly atonement required sacrafice and the "blood" - but sacrafice alone was never sufficient - scripture tells us that sacrafice without faith and reptentance is not acceptable to God.

Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not;

Salvation has ALWAYS been by faith through grace. The OT sacrafices looked forward to THE sacrafice that God Himself gave. God had respect and compassion for Abel's sacrafice as his sacrafice was done in faith. God looked at the hearts of Cain and Abel and Cain's sacrafice was not done in faith. It did not have to do with it being "bloodless" as many sacrafices were bloodless. Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

God has not changed the way man is given salvation, it has always been by "faith".

[blitzkreig]

:thumb

Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not;

. He doesn't change.

But he changes the way man relates to Him all of the time.

When I look out the window I note that we are not in the garden of Eden ...

That is the very definition of Dispensation.

Dispensation. Translated from the word οἰκονομία, meaning primarily stewardship, a dispensation is a specific, divine economy, a commitment from God to man of a responsibility to discharge that which God has appointed him.


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[blitzkreig]

Hi - as you can surmise from my post/reply, I don't agree with this last statement. How do you know that "belief" or "faith" was not required? I think when you read through the entire Old Testatement, it becomes clear that in Old Testatement times we needed each of faith, repentance and sacrafice - not just sacrafice, not just faith and/or not just repentance. Interestingly - this remains true today. We say salvation comes through "faith" alone - but faith in Christ (saving Faith) is not possible without repentance from sin - and that Faith includes acceptance of Christ's sacrafice for our sins.

You might like to comment on the post of the other day which speaks of "the Terms Of Salvation" ...

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=1600&highlight=terms


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[blitzkreig]

[From Lewis Sperry Chafer Systematic Theology ]

The works of Systematic Theology generally have recognized the redeemed people of this age, but only as a supposed sequence or continuation in the progress of the divine purpose in Israel. They refer to “the Old Testament Church” and to “the New Testament Church” as together constituting component parts of one divine project, thus failing to recognize those distinctions between Israel and the Church which, being so radical in character, serve to indicate the widest possible difference between them—difference as to origin, difference as to character and responsibility, and difference as to destiny. There are at least twenty-four far-reaching distinctions yet to be observed between Israel and the Church, while there are about twelve major features common to both; but the obvious similarities do not set aside the differences. The fact that revelation concerning both Israel and the Church includes the truth about God, holiness, sin, and redemption by blood, does not eliminate a far greater body of truth in which it is disclosed that Israelites become such by a natural birth while Christians become such by a spiritual birth; that Israelites were appointed to live and serve under a meritorious, legal system, while Christians live and serve under a gracious system; that Israelites, as a nation, have their citizenship now and their future destiny centered only in the earth, reaching on to the new earth which is yet to be, while Christians have their citizenship and future destiny centered only in heaven, extending on into the new heavens that are yet to be (for both earthly and heavenly blessings see Rev. 21:1–22:7; 2 Pet. 3:10–13; Heb. 1:10–12; Isa. 65:17; 66:22).

…

Though in its time established and imposed by Jehovah, Judaism did not merge into Christianity, nor does it now provide the slightest advantage to the individual Jew who would become a Christian. With reference to Christianity, Jews and Gentiles are now, alike, “under sin.” They need identically the same grace of God (Rom. 3:9), and that grace is offered to them on precisely the same terms (Rom. 10:12). Nicodemus, who was apparently a most perfect specimen of Judaism, was told by Christ that he must be born again, and the Apostle Paul prayed that the Israelites who had “a zeal for God” might be saved. They were at fault in that after the new and limitless privileges in grace had come through Christ (John 1:17), they still clung to the old meritorious features of Judaism, “going about to establish their own righteousness” and not submitting themselves to the imputed righteousness of God (Rom. 10:1–3).

…

Human Conduct in General and in All Ages.

From the beginning, God, in faithfulness, has disclosed to man the precise manner of life that He requires of him. What may be termed inherent law embodies all that a Creator expects and requires of His creature. It is well expressed by the phrase, “Be ye holy; for I am holy.” This law has been binding on that portion of humanity in all ages to whom no other law has been addressed. However, God has disclosed His specific will to particular groups of people in various ages. Identification of the particular responsibility God has imposed upon man in each age is not difficult. During much of human history man has sustained a meritorious or legal relation to God; that is, God’s declaration to man concerning conduct was, in substance, If you will do good, I will bless you (cf. Deut. 28:1–14), and if you will do evil, I will curse you (cf. Deut. 28:15–68).

All governmental, social, and family affairs, of necessity, proceed upon the principle of the recognition of human merit. It is not difficult, therefore, for men generally to understand the legal aspect of divine government, but it is difficult apparently for them to understand the grace aspect of divine government.1 (http://www.rr-bb.com/#_ftn1) The fact that God, in sovereign grace, now either bestows, or assures, all His saving benefits before allowing the individual to do aught for him seems perhaps too good to be true; but it is true, and, until this fact is recognized, the Christian will not be able to walk with God intelligently from the true grace-motive.

Though the Bible sets forth the divine requirements for human conduct in each age, there are three extended systems of divine government which in succession cover the period of human history from the time when the first written Scriptures were given to the end of the mediatorial reign of Christ, namely, (a) the Mosaic law, embodying the manner of life prescribed in the law age, which age existed from Moses to Christ, (b) the grace rule of life, embodying the manner of life prescribed for the present age, which age extends from the first to the second advent of Christ, and (c) the kingdom rule of life, embodying the manner of life prescribed for the yet future kingdom age, which age follows the second advent. Though too often confused, the divine government is different in each of these ages, being adapted perfectly to the relation which the people in their respective dispensations sustain to God. Each of these systems of human government is wholly complete in itself. The Mosaic law contained the commandments, the statutes, and the ordinances, and was an expression of God’s will to Israel to whom alone it was addressed.

In the teachings of grace addressed only to the Church, God has disclosed in full the manner of life which becomes those who are already perfected in Christ. The kingdom rule of conduct embodies that precise responsibility which will be required when Christ is reigning on the earth, when Satan is in the pit, and when the knowledge of the Lord shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea. It is most reasonable that there should be widely different precepts indicated for various groups of people so diverse in their relationships. Human obligation toward God could not be the same after the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ, and the Day of Pentecost, as it was before those events. In like manner, human obligation toward God cannot be the same after the removal of the Church to heaven, the return of Christ to reign, and the establishment of the kingdom of heaven over all the earth, as it was before.

As to the essential character of these three systems of human conduct, it may be observed that two are legal and one is gracious. Two simple tests are available in determining those precepts that are legal in distinction to those that are gracious: (a) that which is legal is demonstrated to be such because of accompanying meritorious conditions which determine the divine blessings (cf. Ex. 20:12; Ps. 103:17, 18; Matt. 5:3–12; 6:14, 15); while that which is gracious is an appeal based upon divine blessings already bestowed (cf. Rom. 12:1, 2; Eph. 4:1–3, 32; Col. 3:1).

There is much in common among these three great governing systems. Every one of the ten commandments, excepting the fourth, is restated in the grace system. The first commandment alone reappears in that system in one form or another upwards of fifty times, but when thus appearing, it, like other legal features, is always restated in order that it may conform precisely to the essential character of grace. (b) Again, that which is legal is demonstrated to be such by the fact that only human ability is appealed to; while that which is gracious is evidenced by two facts, that divine enablement is provided and its exercise is anticipated.

In general, the law system is set forth in the Old Testament (cf. Ex. 20:1–31:18); the grace teachings are revealed in portions of the Gospels, the Book of Acts, and the New Testament Epistles; while the kingdom system is set forth in the Old Testament predictions concerning the Messianic period, and in those portions of the synoptic Gospels which record the kingdom teachings of John the Baptist and of Christ. The present importance of these distinctions, especially those that are related to the Church, is obvious.


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