? on the Apostles Creed and Luke 23:39-43

[felixthecat]

Okay here’s a dumb question.

I think most people are familiar with the

Apostles Creed:

I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried:

He descended into hell:

The third day he rose again from the dead:

He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

I believe in the Holy Ghost:

I believe in the holy catholic church*: the communion of saints:

The forgiveness of sins:

The resurrection of the body:

And the life everlasting.

Amen.

*Note: Little "c" for catholic church or universal body of believers.

Jesus was on the cross. There was conversation between the two thieves and Christ:

Luke 23:39-43

[39] And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

[40] But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

[41] And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

[42] And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

[43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

My question is this, how could the thief on the cross be in Paradise that day when Christ desended into hell and rose on the third day. My daughter asked me this and I told her, I’d get back to her. I accept allot on faith and wasn't sure how to answer her question.

[FaithContender]

My question is this, how could the thief on the cross be in Paradise that day when Christ desended into hell and rose on the third day. My daughter asked me this and I told her, I’d get back to her. I accept allot on faith and wasn't sure how to answer her question.

The same way people like Moses and Abraham got into heaven when they died...read Hebrews where it talks about the patriarchs and says "by faith, Moses..." and "by faith, Abraham..." and "by faith, Noah..." Just as in this current dispensation, people went to heaven because of their faith, not by works. The Law exists to show us how much we NEED Jesus to be our substitute...so the thief went straight to heaven because he believed...does that make sense? My head is kind of cloudy right now:doh

[Kliska]

Ok, here's one of the teachings that covers this. Many believe that Heaven proper was not open for the OT saints until Christ physically was crucified and was buried; He went to Paradise/Sheol (which is not Heaven) to preach and to take the OT saints, and those like the thief with Him to Heaven. Another way to label it was "Abraham's Bosom."

Here's a longer explanation: http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-go-to-hell.html

[felixthecat]

The same way people like Moses and Abraham got into heaven when they died...read Hebrews where it talks about the patriarchs and says "by faith, Moses..." and "by faith, Abraham..." and "by faith, Noah..." Just as in this current dispensation, people went to heaven because of their faith, not by works. The Law exists to show us how much we NEED Jesus to be our substitute...so the thief went straight to heaven because he believed...does that make sense? My head is kind of cloudy right now:doh


I understand the faith part but she was questioning the days.

When He died and rose again three days later, her question is was the theif really in heaven in one day.

I think I get it ... by FAITH the thief was in heaven but then I have the day problem. I'm not trying to be picky - this was HER question.

[felixthecat]

Ok, here's one of the teachings that covers this. Many believe that Heaven proper was not open for the OT saints until Christ physically was crucified and was buried; He went to Paradise/Sheol (which is not Heaven) to preach and to take the OT saints, and those like the thief with Him to Heaven. Another way to label it was "Abraham's Bosom."

Here's a longer explanation: http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-go-to-hell.html


Okay! This is helping me out.

...

Jesus said years later on the Cross to the thief beside Him, "Today, thou shalt be with Me in Paradise." His body was in the tomb; His soul/spirit went to the “Paradise” realm of Sheol / Hades. He then removed all the righteous dead from Paradise and took them with Him to Heaven. Unfortunately, in many translations of the Bible, translators are not consistent, or correct, in how they translate the Hebrew and Greek words for “Sheol,” “Hades,” and “Hell.”

...

As He gave up His spirit, He said, "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit." His suffering was completed in our stead. His soul/spirit went to the Paradise side of Hades. Jesus did not go to Hell. Jesus’ suffering ended the moment He died. The payment for sin was paid. He then awaited the resurrection of His body and His return to His glory in His ascension. Did Jesus go to Hell? No. Did Jesus go to Sheol / Hades? Yes.


THAT is a GREAT LINK. That helps me to explain that to her.

I felt so dumb ... :doh

So the thief went to Paradise, Sheol with Jesus and then went to heaven with the other righteous people there. Prior to His death and resurrection they could not be in heaven till Christ paid the price for their sins It was their FAITH that saved all of them.

I just wasn't putting it together.

Thank you so much!!!!!

[felixthecat]

The same way people like Moses and Abraham got into heaven when they died...read Hebrews where it talks about the patriarchs and says "by faith, Moses..." and "by faith, Abraham..." and "by faith, Noah..." Just as in this current dispensation, people went to heaven because of their faith, not by works. The Law exists to show us how much we NEED Jesus to be our substitute...so the thief went straight to heaven because he believed...does that make sense? My head is kind of cloudy right now:doh


I see now what you are saying.

I was the one being DENSE; not you!

Thank you!!!

[Sing4Him]

Also maybe consider God's omnipresence.

[Kliska]

Okay! This is helping me out.
Thank you so much!!!!!

You're welcome! Just keep in mind that this is one POV; one that I've always been taught and believed to some extent; just make sure to look up the scriptures on your own, and pray about it too. :thumb

Oh, and there is also debate on who specifically was in the "other side" of sheol (the unfaithful), and what exactly did Christ do for them/in front of them. Did He preach to them who had never heard His name, and allow them a choice, or did He proclaim His work to them, showing them their lack of faith towards God, and then they all remained in that section of Sheol. It's debated.

[Obadiah]

The idea that Jesus descended to Sheol between His death and resurrection is, I think, pretty well substantiated biblically.

On Felix's question, we might also understand Jesus' statement slightly differently:

"Truly, I say to you today -- you will be with Me in paradise."

[Rondaben]

Lovely timing :) Our Pator just had a sermon today on this passage.

First, I have to say that I don't agree with the Apostolic creed for two key reasons, one of which you have cited. Let me explain:

1. "Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary". This is a very, very tricky statement. Born of the Virgin Mary implies that she is the genetic, maternal progenitor of Christ. This very portion of the creed was discussed in the Council of Ephesus in 431. The discussion was whether Mary was the bearer or Theotokos of Christ or was the Christotokos or birth giver to Christ. The first title, Theotokos, was chosen at the council of Ephesus and was established as having the meaning of "Mother of Christ". This is very, very important to distinguish. Mary was chosen to bear Christ's human body into the world. She was not physically or genetically the "Mother" of Christ. To say that she was the mother of Christ denies the sin nature of Mary for had she been the mother of Christ in this sense she would have passed her sin nature to Jesus and he could not have been the "sinless lamb of God." Furthermore, "mother of Christ" indicates that she may also be referred to as "the Mother of God" and elevates her to a co-parental level as God the Father. Note how the sinless nature of Mary, Mary as a Co-redemptrix because of her nature and elevation as a maternal "intercessor" with her son are all key components of a heretical and ascriptural Catholocism/Mariology worship.

2. "He descended into hell". I find there to be very little evidence that Christ went to a hell at all. There are many scriptural reasons for this:

a) Christ himself in Luke 23:43 stated that "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." He said that they would be in the same place as one another and that that place would be "paradise." It is important that we understand that the implication was that they would that very day be together in this place of paradise. Note also that he called the place paradise and not "Heaven" (for the dead and those who are alive in Christ will all be caught up to Jesus in Heaven on the day of the Rapture).

Luke 16:22-29 tells us more about this place of paradise known as the bosom of Abraham. It is referred to as a form of "paradise" of comfort from burdens and of rest. The opposite is described of as a place of torment--called hades. The parable tells that there is a unbreachable void between the two places and that there is no possibility of crossing between the two. It is clear through his own statements and teachings in Luke 16 and 23 that he did not go to the place of hades or "hell"--he was with the thief in the "paradise" of Abrahams bosom.

If he was truly in Hell it brings up some very serious theological questions. Why would he need to go to hell? If the wages of sin are death then the price was payed by his crucifixion at Calvary. Had he then been sent to hades either he was there for a very, very short time (he had an appointment with the thief in paradise) and then he crossed over the uncrossable gulf between hades and paradise or he lied and the thief was with him first in hades and then tagged along when he went to paradise later that day. Either choice is inconsistent with scripture.

My question is this, how could the thief on the cross be in Paradise that day when Christ desended into hell and rose on the third day. My daughter asked me this and I told her, I’d get back to her. I accept allot on faith and wasn't sure how to answer her question

To summarize, Christ was with the thief in paradise that very day. He did not descend into hell-hades. He arose three days later and then went to Heaven from the Mount of Ascension (Luke 24) to prepare a place for you, me, Abraham, the thief and all others who have died in him. We will ALL arise on that day to our reward and the place that he is preparing for us. In the mean time, Jesus is true to his word and the thief, truly is in paradise.