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RefinedbyFire
June 6th, 2007, 08:07 AM
:thumb

:nod

Another fear I had for that group: With seemingly a lack for seeing the absolute seriousness of sin, lack of discussion on holiness & righteousness, yet a craving for dramatic works, and having their eyes set on the gold & riches of heaven, I seriously wonder if the Pentecostal Christians could be some of the "many" Jesus talks about in Matthew 7:21-28.


They did many wondrous works in His Name (casting out demons, prophesying, miracles).

They practiced lawlessness (sin). That happens when you don't take sin absolutely serious in your private life, and don't hunger and thirst for His righteousness.

Lawlessness also happens when you disobey the Bible's strict guidelines on the gifts. They say things like: "Don't put God in a box." Yet, they take Him out of the "box" of His Holy Word, which results in lawlessness.

BlessedinHim
June 6th, 2007, 09:03 AM
The bible says there are many who will be looking for signs and wonders in the last days, and they will get their signs and wonders, but it is not good.

The bible says blessed are those who have not seen but believe.


John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


I dont look for signs and wonders, I consider it dangerous because of what the Word has to say about it in these last days.

I come out skeptical on it very much. If it is in the least unbiblical, I discount it and move on.

One of the questions to ask is this. Does this behaviour glorify God?

Well, if a person has fallen down on the ground, and their dress is up to their waist, or they are slithering around in the floor like a snake making animal sounds or just acting really weird or strange, I find it hard pressed that that is glorifying God.


1 Corinthians 14:40
Let all things be done decently and in order.


When there is an interpretation of a tongues, Does all that is said line up with scripture? Do those words glorify God? If the interpretation is saying something like, You are gonna do great works or how good you are, well, I have to question that. If it gives some blanket statement about anything, I have to question that, too. God's word is specific. No mistake about it.

Disclaimer: I am not saying there can never be a working of the Holy Spirit in tongues or prophecy. But there is a very distinct difference when it is real and when it is just a bunch of emotional people hollering aroung "feeling joy"

When it is real, there is order, people are in awe and listening. When God's presence is strong, it demands respect that glorifies God.

firstlove
June 6th, 2007, 10:13 AM
:nod

Another fear I had for that group: With seemingly a lack for seeing the absolute seriousness of sin, lack of discussion on holiness & righteousness, yet a craving for dramatic works, and having their eyes set on the gold & riches of heaven, I seriously wonder if the Pentecostal Christians could be some of the "many" Jesus talks about in Matthew 7:21-28.


They did many wondrous works in His Name (casting out demons, prophesying, miracles).

They practiced lawlessness (sin). That happens when you don't take sin absolutely serious in your private life, and don't hunger and thirst for His righteousness.

Lawlessness also happens when you disobey the Bible's strict guidelines on the gifts. They say things like: "Don't put God in a box." Yet, they take Him out of the "box" of His Holy Word, which results in lawlessness.



I believe that your statements are entirely unfair to the Body of Christ-of which Pentecostals are a part. I have been a Pentecostal Christian for nearly 20 years-and I have not seen what you say you have seen. The people in the church are very dedicated to the Lord Jesus Christ and do live lives that are set apart for God. -much more so than any church I have ever attended. If you have something that concerns you about the doctrine-that is a fair discussion, but to just cut down a whole group of God's Children is really really unkind.

I know Baptists, Catholics, Presbyterians, ect...who don't even know our Lord Jesus-and that IS "lawlessness". Please, if you really have something to say about the Pentecostal Church-let's talk doctrine-because seriously, talking about people in general-with such statements that you have made-is not only unfair but unscriptural.

I have a co worker-who says she is a Christian-attends church every Sunday-yet swears like a trucker, smokes like a fiend and is as mean as the day is long-should I then cut down her whole denomination because of it? I have another who is as liberal as they come-is shacking up with her boyfriend-yet also attends church every Sunday-and swears her pastor is stupid and a communist. Christians, and those who say they are Christians are the worst examples of most churches.


Here is our statement of fundamental truths-#9 addresses your concern.


These are nonnegotiable tenets of faith that all Assemblies of God churches adhere to. This list is derived from the official Statement of Fundamental Truths. Click links below to see the complete original statement with scriptures.

WE BELIEVE...The Scriptures are Inspired by God and declare His design and plan for mankind.

WE BELIEVE...There is only One True God–revealed in three persons...Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (commonly known as the Trinity).

WE BELIEVE...In the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. As God's son Jesus was both human and divine.

WE BELIEVE...though originally good, Man Willingly Fell to Sin–ushering evil and death, both physical and spiritual, into the world.

WE BELIEVE...Every Person Can Have Restored Fellowship with God Through 'Salvation' (accepting Christ's offer of forgiveness for sin). [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the A/G]

WE BELIEVE...and practice two ordinances—(1) Water Baptism by Immersion after repenting of one's sins and receiving Christ's gift of salvation, and (2) Holy Communion (the Lord's Supper) as a symbolic remembrance of Christ's suffering and death for our salvation.

WE BELIEVE...the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a Special Experience Following Salvation that empowers believers for witnessing and effective service, just as it did in New Testament times. [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the A/G]

WE BELIEVE... The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is ‘Speaking in Tongues,’ as experienced on the Day of Pentecost and referenced throughout Acts and the Epistles.

WE BELIEVE...Sanctification Initially Occurs at Salvation and is not only a declaration that a believer is holy, but also a progressive lifelong process of separating from evil as believers continually draw closer to God and become more Christlike.

WE BELIEVE...The Church has a Mission to seek and save all who are lost in sin. We believe 'the Church' is the Body of Christ and consists of the people who, throughout time, have accepted God's offer of redemption (regardless of religious denomination) through the sacrificial death of His son Jesus Christ.

WE BELIEVE...A Divinely Called and Scripturally Ordained Leadership Ministry Serves the Church. The Bible teaches that each of us under leadership must commit ourselves to reach others for Christ, to worship Him with other believers, and to build up or edify the body of believers–the Church.

WE BELIEVE...Divine Healing of the Sick is a Privilege for Christians Today and is provided for in Christ's atonement (His sacrificial death on the cross for our sins). [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the A/G]

WE BELIEVE...in The Blessed Hope—When Jesus Raptures His Church Prior to His Return to Earth (the second coming). At this future moment in time all believers who have died will rise from their graves and will meet the Lord in the air, and Christians who are alive will be caught up with them, to be with the Lord forever. [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the A/G]

WE BELIEVE...in The Millennial Reign of Christ when Jesus returns with His saints at His second coming and begins His benevolent rule over earth for 1,000 years. This millennial reign will bring the salvation of national Israel and the establishment of universal peace.

WE BELIEVE...A Final Judgment Will Take Place for those who have rejected Christ. They will be judged for their sin and consigned to eternal punishment in a punishing lake of fire.

WE BELIEVE...and look forward to the perfect New Heavens and a New Earth that Christ is preparing for all people, of all time, who have accepted Him. We will live and dwell with Him there forever following His millennial reign on Earth. 'And so shall we forever be with the Lord

BlessedinHim
June 6th, 2007, 02:12 PM
I dont think he is grouping all of them together, I believe he is taking from his own experience just as I have. Perspective. If he went to 4 or 5 different churches and 4 of them didnt act biblically, then to him most of them do not. Every congregration has its own personality.

The thing that bothered me more, was the fact they really get more into legalism. Dont cut your hair, dont wear pants, dont wear make up, dont watch movies, dont dont dont.......

That is just another extreme that can happen. Some are more extreme than others. Some are more laid back. I like the laid back ones. The more laid back ones in my experience had a more biblically sound Holy Ghost presence there to me. I mean, you knew it was real, not some emotionalism thing happening. There was a hush, and that person alone was speaking, and then an interpretor. You have to experience the difference to fully understand it.

firstlove
June 6th, 2007, 03:07 PM
I dont think he is grouping all of them together, I believe he is taking from his own experience just as I have. Perspective. If he went to 4 or 5 different churches and 4 of them didnt act biblically, then to him most of them do not. Every congregration has its own personality.

That is just another extreme that can happen. Some are more extreme than others. Some are more laid back. I like the laid back ones. The more laid back ones in my experience had a more biblically sound Holy Ghost presence there to me. I mean, you knew it was real, not some emotionalism thing happening. There was a hush, and that person alone was speaking, and then an interpretor. You have to experience the difference to fully understand it.


I'm sorry if I misunderstood-but even what you're saying...this part;;;


'The thing that bothered me more, was the fact they really get more into legalism. Dont cut your hair, dont wear pants, dont wear make up, dont watch movies, dont dont dont......."

That's just not true. I have short hair, wear make up, watch (some, not most) movies and wear pants-and am Pentecostal., and have been used in the gift of tongues in the past-with the Holy Silence, being moved upon by the Holy Spirit to speak forth-and interpretation following. I've never seen the excesses-like the Benny Hinn stuff (he's WOF not Pentecostal) in my church or in any AoG church I've been to.

I guess I do understand what you're saying to some extent-evey Baptist I know isn't even close to walking with the Lord-yet I still wouldn't lump them all together like that.

BlessedinHim
June 6th, 2007, 07:19 PM
I'm sorry if I misunderstood-but even what you're saying...this part;;;


'The thing that bothered me more, was the fact they really get more into legalism. Dont cut your hair, dont wear pants, dont wear make up, dont watch movies, dont dont dont......."

That's just not true. I have short hair, wear make up, watch (some, not most) movies and wear pants-and am Pentecostal., and have been used in the gift of tongues in the past-with the Holy Silence, being moved upon by the Holy Spirit to speak forth-and interpretation following. I've never seen the excesses-like the Benny Hinn stuff (he's WOF not Pentecostal) in my church or in any AoG church I've been to.

I guess I do understand what you're saying to some extent-evey Baptist I know isn't even close to walking with the Lord-yet I still wouldn't lump them all together like that.


I didnt say all of them are like that. In my experience I havent included any A of G, I have no basis to even say anything about A of G. All I said was about the ones I attended.

I am glad you are not legalist and your church is not legalist. I think when they get into the legalism stuff, they detract from the gospel.

I am glad you dont think I am like the phelps too. I dont know what to think about them. They make us all look bad.

That is funny you mention Baptist, that is the denomination I am now attending. LOL I have attended Methodist, Nazarene, non-denominational, UPC, Pentecostal and Church of God. That is where my experiences come from. Sorry if you felt like I was lumping all together. I dont think they are all bad. I have learned from all of them and glad for the experience.

firstlove
June 6th, 2007, 08:10 PM
Just wanted to let you know that Assembly of God IS the largest Pentecostal denomination-so when you say, "Pentecostal"-and that WAS mentioned several times-that's what I think of.

Betty
June 6th, 2007, 08:15 PM
Every Assembly of God are not the same. I saw one on T.V. in Florida was kind of weird, but the one in Texas and the one in Washington that I went to were just regular Churches.

RefinedbyFire
June 6th, 2007, 11:33 PM
First Love, I'm really sorry if you felt offended in any way. If you look at my two statements I made in this thread, I said I believed there were genuine Christians within the denomination. I said that I fear that Pentecostal Christians could be part of that group mentioned in Matthew 7:21-29 (mainly because of the combo of the dramatic works, and the lawlessness mentioned). And, I still fear that. I guess I don't feel like I need to back out of those feelings.

Each individual church under the umbrella of a denomination is different. Maybe your certain Pentecostal church is right on the truth, where the group I attended had definite error.

At this particular group, this is what I experienced:

There were tongues spoke loudly and out-of-control. There was no interpretor. That is wrong according to Scripture, but nobody seemed to care.

There were people that acted what they called "drunk in the Spirit" (out-of-control laughter). To me, that is not self-control (a Fruit of the Spirit).

While praising the Lord with music, there were a few girls dancing kinda provocative (a bit sensual) with flags and stuff.

The Bible was quoted a lot less than most churches. Nobody hardly opened their Bibles. One service, I brought my Bible and seriously started reading it in the corner. Some people looked at me kinda wierd...

One service, they had men come from California, and in their prayers, they were praying for riches to be sown in everybody's life, and said "Forget giving to the poor, we pray for..." People were jumping up and saying "Yes Lord! Yes Lord!" to a prayer that was against His Holy Word!

Certain people were giving "words" from the Lord all the time. Yet, one person I knew of giving words, hardly read the Word, and would get upset at themselves for occasionally going to Rated R movies! I came to the conclusion that I don't think the Lord is giving this person messages & words to deliver. I mean, the Holy Prophets got words from the Lord every so many years -- not multiple times a week!

People that called themselves "Prophets" didn't work, weren't interested in working, were always asking for money, preached on gaining millionaire riches and finances from God, when they didn't even tithe their income to God.

I feel I have a right to come to my conclusions. However, I realize your church could be different. Again, I am sorry if I offended you. Grace and peace to you. Thanks for sharing your feelings.

kenod
June 7th, 2007, 04:13 AM
I said I believed there were genuine Christians within the denomination. I said that I fear that Pentecostal Christians could be part of that group mentioned in Matthew 7:21-29 (mainly because of the combo of the dramatic works, and the lawlessness mentioned). And, I still fear that. I guess I don't feel like I need to back out of those feelings.

I would like to respond to your comment because I classify myself as Pentecostal - not by denomination, but by experience.

All churches are represented in Mat 7:21-29, including yours - unless your church has not done any “wonderful works”. Matthew is speaking of the Church throughout the ages, which has always included those who genuinely serve Jesus Christ and those who are hypocrites.

While you see “lawlessnes” in P/c churches, they would probably see “lukewarmness” in your church … so much is in the eye of the beholder.

I think there is some validity to your criticisms, but there are just way too many people of well-recognized Christian integrity who support the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church today manifesting all the gifts.

Your personal experiences (and mine) are really irrelevant as this is a global phenomenon. There are something like 400+ million Pentecostal-charismatic Christians in the world today, many of them in third world (developing) countries. Then you have the many others who, like Billy Graham, have not had a personal experience of speaking in tongues, but acknowledge that all the gifts are available to the Church today.

We need to go beyond our preferred interpretation of the Bible, and beyond our personal experiences, and look at this last day move of the Holy Spirit to see what is really happening around the world ... drawing millions into the kingdom of God, and leading millions of others to a closer walk with Jesus Christ.

The Reformation, the Wesleyan holiness movement, the Pentecostal movement ... perhaps God has even more for the Church if we are open to the leading of His spirit.