Baptism

[Josiah]

**Sigh**

Look, I've been a Christian for about 24 years. Grew up in the church (church of Christ to be specific). I'm not a part of a church of Christ now (by that particular TITLE I mean...I'm certainly a part of The church of Christ) but growing up in it has left some nagging questions in my mind about baptism.

They hold that you MUST be baptized to be saved. Almost every other church group in the world does NOT believe that. There is some pretty hard Biblical evidence for their stance (if you understand Baptism the way they do). I just wonder if EVERYONE may be missing something.

I currently am a part of a "Baptist" church (I HATE these labels). "Baptists" by default have what I consider a WAY too lack-luster view of Baptism. They're motto is "we'll schedule it when it's convenient for the program" - I HATE HATE HAAAAAATE That!!!!!! :mad

Most "Baptists" feel that if you consider Baptism necessary for salvation you're advocating WORKS-based faith. But I think they're off base with that line of thinking. To use an analogy, let's say someone said they have a gift for you (maybe something as grand as a new HOUSE they were GIVING you or something, no strings attached) and all you have to do is drive to the next town and sign some papers. Would that be earning that gift? I say no.

But regardless, I'm weary of this lack of full confidence either way. I'm not sure where I stand on the issue. It's clear in the Bible that our faith is based on grace alone and not works (so that no one can boast). But the verses that people use to argue BOTH viewpoints have validity. One is 1 Peter 3:20-22 which FLAT OUT SAYS in vs. 21: "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[a] of a good conscience toward God." (The term "this water" above is talking about the water during the flood).

I just don't know what to do with this and I'm tired of having these nagging doubts every time the subject comes up or I have to teach on the subject. Why is this so difficult? I know probably about 99% of the people who respond here will say "It's NOT so difficult" and maybe something like "just hold to God's unchanging hand". I used to say the same thing before I really heard the 2 conflicting viewpoints (well, except for the "hold to God's unchanging hand" part. I hope someone shoots me if I ever say that to someone). When I refused to even hear or consider that another view may have validity and that I may be weak in my understanding, sure it was simple! I very rarely (if EVER) have heard anyone say or think the way I do...that they're just not 100% sure what the answer is on the subject. It's always galvanized to one (seemingly) unwavering side or the other.

Most subjects like that which have conflict associated with them I can just chalk up as not important enough to worry about but this is a bit different.

Any help (REAL HELP) out there?

SIDE BAR:
I KNOW (inside and out and upside down) the arguments for both sides so the typical examples or "church cliches" are not going to do any good in this discussion.

Is baptism more than just a "symbol"?

[Clouds]

Hi Josiah,

You should click on the link 1 Peter 3:20-22, which you have in your post.
Verse 21 does not "flat out" read the way whatever bible you are using says.

The work of physical baptism with water etc. does not save you at all, but you should still do it after you have been already saved by God.

It is the spiritual baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves us, which involves absolutely no work on our part. It is the work of God alone that saves us.

[Josiah]

Hi Josiah,

You should click on the link 1 Peter 3:20-22, which you have in your post.
Verse 21 does not "flat out" read the way whatever bible you are using says.

The work of physical baptism with water etc. does not save you at all, but you should still do it after you have been already saved by God.

It is the spiritual baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves us, which involves absolutely no work on our part. It is the work of God alone that saves us.

Please understand that I'm not arguing for or against this position. I just want to come to a final understanding of what it really means and whether or not we are missing something much deeper. I believe baptism is more than just "something we should do out of obedience" (although we should). I think there's something deeper than the answer most people give that it's an "outward showing of an inward change". I think it's MUCH more than that.

Here's 2 Peter in context:

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water (the water that came in the flood) symbolizes baptism (the water that we are baptized in (what other water can it be referring to?)) that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

That sounds pretty flat-out to me. You mentioned spiritual baptism but it specifically says here "water" (IE the waters of baptism).

Did you read my whole post? Your answer is what I expected. All I want to do is FULLY understand baptism.

Then there's Hebrews 6:1, 2 which says:
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

So that makes me feel a bit "immature" in my faith since I don't have a 100% clear understanding on baptism.

I hope people understand what I'm saying. I AM saying that it has to be more than something we can "fit in" to our "schedule" but NOT something that if someone on their deathbed who can't move has to do to be saved even though he truly gives his heart to Jesus. I'm saying it seems like we're missing something going on behind the scenes and many people seem to be content to leave it at that.

[HSmomto4]

It isn't talking about the water you get dunked in, it is talking about the Holy Spirit.

[Josiah]

It isn't talking about the water you get dunked in, it is talking about the Holy Spirit.

What is the "it" you're referring to? 2 Peter 3:21 is talking SPECIFICALLY about water.

[Train]

They hold that you MUST be baptized to be saved. Almost every other church group in the world does NOT believe that.

Are you sure? I thought that Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, and maybe Anglicans do believe that, along with some other Protestant denominations. That's probably a super-majority of churches. Not that I would advocate doing theology democratically.

Most "Baptists" feel that if you consider Baptism necessary for salvation you're advocating WORKS-based faith.

I don't really understand the idea that Baptism is something we do. Baptism, even the way Baptists do it, is not something you do. It's something that's done to you. I mean, who ever heard of someone baptizing themselves?

[lyngraphics]

The Baptist church where I was Baptized has this on their website:

When we are baptized we symbolically proclaim that we have been buried with Christ and have risen to new life.

[Josiah]

Yes, that's true lyngraphics. But the attitude that it can be "scheduled" to fit it in with the "order of worship" (sometimes weeks or months down the road) is not right.

Today, we had several baptizms (7). One was my daughter. I am overjoyed that she made this decision (with our help teaching her). She's 9. Anyway, the pastor was away and the senior adult pastor was filling in. During his sermon (and before the Lord's Supper which we also had today), he mentioned that Baptism was by immersion (I agree). But he then said he doesn't get all hung up if someone wants to be sprinkled. He said it doesn't matter because it doesn't save you anyway. This is just further proof that there is a lack of understanding regarding Baptism. It REALLY bugged me that he said that.

[HeIsEnough]

Is baptism more than just a "symbol"?

What kind of water can cleanse a conscience?

[Josiah]

What kind of water can cleanse a conscience?

What we're failing to do in these responses is address the scriptures themselves. I'm having trouble understanding the full meaning of the passages mentioned (as well as others not mentioned).