HELP!! Part 2

[Saved by Grace_06]

Hi Guys,

Would you help me to understand what you mean by Freewill by answering the following questions?

1. Can the man apart from Christ please God by keeping God's laws?
2. Does the man apart from Christ Love God?
3. Does the man apart from Christ seek after God?
4. Does the man apart from Christ do anything good before God?
5. Does the man apart from Christ revere and/or fear God?
6. Is the man apart from Christ free to come to Christ in and of his own volition and will?

Please use scripture alone to answer the questions - thanks!

[HeIsEnough]

Help!!


Matthew 5:37
......'No,' 'No'......

:lol2

[RefinedbyFire]

I think Scripture can back up a solid "NO" to all your questions. Number six is questionable, though. I mean, even Jesus said words to those unrepentant towns that sounded like they had a choice, but were foolish not to repent. Ya know? And, sometimes it looks like ultimately the Father gives Christ His sheep -- yet Him and His Holy Father are one.

Scripture is full of several subjects that seem to go in-circles in the human mind -- kinda like puzzle-pieces that exist seperately, and shouldn't fit together, yet they do interlock together somehow:

1) We are saved by grace alone, and not works. Yet, faith without works is dead. (Conclusion: We are saved unto good works).
2) Free will verses Predestination
3) The Holy Trinity (3 seperate persons, but 1 God)
4) Christ is One with His Holy Father. Yet, He doesn't know the date/time of His return. And, it appears that His Father gives Him His sheep. Yet, Christ also says that He chose us, and appointed us to go bear fruit -- fruit that will last.

I think those mysterious subjects show us that He is God, and we are not.

[Saved by Grace_06]

I think Scripture can back up a solid "NO" to all your questions. Number six is questionable, though. I mean, even Jesus said words to those unrepentant towns that sounded like they had a choice, but were foolish not to repent. Ya know? And, sometimes it looks like ultimately the Father gives Christ His sheep -- yet Him and His Holy Father are one.

Scripture is full of several subjects that seem to go in-circles in the human mind -- kinda like puzzle-pieces that exist seperately, and shouldn't fit together, yet they do interlock together somehow:

1) We are saved by grace alone, and not works. Yet, faith without works is dead. (Conclusion: We are saved unto good works).
2) Free will verses Predestination
3) The Holy Trinity (3 seperate persons, but 1 God)
4) Christ is One with His Holy Father. Yet, He doesn't know the date/time of His return. And, it appears that His Father gives Him His sheep. Yet, Christ also says that He chose us, and appointed us to go bear fruit -- fruit that will last.

I think those mysterious subjects show us that He is God, and we are not.


Very good stuff! I feel the problem concerning the freewill vs Predestination issue is that people see a commands in scripture and therefore assume that God will not command things which he know people cannot do. Their conclussion then is this: Command = choice, else God is disingenous. Those how hold to a predestination view do not disagree that there is a choice to be made, but affirms that no one ever makes the right choice. Indeed, they cannot (Rom 8:7). Why? Because men love darkness rather than light, the light being Jesus. So again, its not that man cannot come, so much as they will not come. And, they will not come because they hate God. Also worthy of mentioning is the fact that God commands plenty of things he knows that we in an ourselves cannot do, e.g, "Love God with all your heart, mind, strength, etc."

No Christian has ever done that. The most holy saint cries in disgust that his love for God is not what he should be. God also commanded Lazarus to arise. Lazarus was dead and could not hear, let a lone get up. God had to first resurrect him before he could obey. It is the same with us; for we cannot "see" until we are born again (John 3:3). God gets ALL the glory this way. I say again, the question is not "do some people choose" Christ, but instead "why some people choose him?" I think the Bible is clear that the ONLY ones who choose God are the ones whom God has enabled to come. I think Christians who missed this truth, miss just how amazing grace really is and therefore have a small view of God and a weak and soft and fickle Christanity (unless indeed they presue holiness and prayer, which will result in knowing God better than any theology would). By the way, John Neuton, the writer of the song "Amazing Grace" was an exslaver trader. He was depraved in his mind and lost to God. He believed what he did was right and good. God did not leave him in his depraved mind, but instead gave him truth. Thus he wrote the song that explains what occurs with us believers, namely, "I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind but now I see." We were all dead once! How is it that we who were once dead in sins and who hated God made a decision for Christ?

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." - John 3:8

[HeIsEnough]

I think Scripture can back up a solid "NO" to all your questions.

Technically speaking, mine was a no I don't want to help. :lol2

Number 5 is definitely not the case....in this case:

5. Does the man apart from Christ revere and/or fear God?


Acts 10

Cornelius Calls for Peter
1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!"

4Cornelius stared at him in fear. "What is it, Lord?" he asked.

The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. 5Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter. 6He is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea."

7When the angel who spoke to him had gone, Cornelius called two of his servants and a devout soldier who was one of his attendants. 8He told them everything that had happened and sent them to Joppa.


It is because of this:


John 6:45

It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.


Those who call out to God in humility and honor Him, are sent to the Son.

I haven't thought about any of the questions too much, but to qualify every one with "apart from Christ" makes any who the Lord was pleased with in the old testament of no consequence. Technically, they did not have Christ, though many had faith in God for the Messiah. I don't doubt there have been more than a few 'God fearing' people before Christ.

[Saved by Grace_06]

Technically speaking, mine was a no I don't want to help. :lol2

Number 5 is definitely not the case....in this case:

5. Does the man apart from Christ revere and/or fear God?



It is because of this:



Those who call out to God in humility and honor Him, are sent to the Son.


When the Bible says, speaking about everyone apart from Christ, "There is no fear of God before their eyes" (Rom 3:18) you would maintain that some did fear God? Question: Was Cornelius apart from Christ? If so, what are your proof from scripture.

[HeIsEnough]

When the Bible says, speaking about everyone apart from Christ, "There is no fear of God before their eyes" (Rom 3:18) you would maintain that some did fear God? Question: Was Cornelius apart from Christ? If so, what are your proof from scripture.

Is your claim none were pleasing to God before circa 33 AD?

I think its why it says this :lol2

"He and all his family were devout and God-fearing"

I was trying to say you need to understand what was understood, at the time it was written.

[Saved by Grace_06]

Is your claim none were pleasing to God before circa 33 AD?

I think its why it says this :lol2

"He and all his family were devout and God-fearing"

I was trying to say you need to understand what was understood, at the time it was written.

My claim is that "none fear God" (Rom 3:18). None means none. The only ones that fear God are those whom God saves. My question to you is to prove that the family who "feared God" were apart from Christ.

Get me?

[HeIsEnough]

My claim is that "none fear God" (Rom 3:18). None means none. The only ones that fear God are those whom God saves. My question to you is to prove that the family who "feared God" were apart from Christ.

Get me?

Together with us, any who feared God were made perfect, as the scriptures teach. While they lived, they lived by faith, as the scriptures teach. I am getting you, that was never the problem. If you don't speak to what people bring up but rather reiterate your statements, you'll never see what people are saying to you. I know you think none can add to your knowledge, you are in fact confined by your knowledge, but some day you may get that part as well.

[Big Daddy]

Together with us, any who feared God were made perfect, as the scriptures teach. While they lived, they lived by faith, as the scriptures teach. I am getting you, that was never the problem. If you don't speak to what people bring up but rather reiterate your statements, you'll never see what people are saying to you. I know you think none can add to your knowledge, you are in fact confined by your knowledge, but some day you may get that part as well.:nod
Nothing will keep a man from the truth more, than thinking he already holds it.